>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IMAGES SHOCKING THE WORLD.

THE "BUTCHER OF BOSNIA" HONORED IN SERBIA.

EU'S ENLARGEMENT COMMISSIONER MARTA KOS JOINS ME AFTER SHE CANCELED HER VISIT TO SERBIA IN PROTEST.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF RATKO MLADIC'S HARROWING CRIMES WITH JOURNALIST JULIAN BORGER.

> >> NEXT -- >> THE ARGUING IS FINE.

WE SHOULDN'T COMPROMISE OUR PRINCIPLES, BUT WE ALSO SHOULD BE BUILDING COALITIONS THE WAY THE BUILDERS INTENDED TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS.

>> HOW TO BE A PEACE MAKER IN THE AGE OF CONTEMPT.

UTAH GOVERNOR SPENCER COX GIVES US HIS OFFRAMP FROM THE DEEP POLARIZATION FACING AMERICA.

> >> PLUS -- >> I THINK THE TESTAMENT TO THIS STORY, RIGHT NOW IT'S A STORY ABOUT PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER DESPITE THEIR DIFFERENCES, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE TO A TRAGEDY, RESPONDING WITH KINDNESS.

>> ATDS >> AS WE PREPARE TO COMMEMORATE 9/11, THE ENDURING MUSICAL THAT INSPIRED THE COMEDY IN SMALL TOWN AMERICAN.

A LOOK BACK WITH THE WRITING DUO FROM "COME FROM AWAY. "

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE FUNERAL OF WAR CRIMINAL RATKO MLADIC HAS SHOCKED EUROPEAN OFFICIALS AND CAST DOUBT OVER SERBIA'S BID FOR EU MEMBERSHIP.

THOUSANDS OF MOURNERS GATHERED TO HONOR THE "BUTCHER OF BOSNIA" AS THE FORMER SERB COMMANDER WAS BURIED WITH MILITARY HONORS.

PRESIDENT ALEKSANDAR VUCIC DID NOT ATTEND THE FUNERAL.

HOWEVER, HIS SON DANILO WAS THERE JOINED BY SENIOR SERBIAN OFFICIALS.

NOW MLADIC DIED AT 84 IN THE HAGUE WHERE HE WAS SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE FOR HIS ROLE IN THE 1995 MASSACRE OF MORE THAN 8,000 MUSLIM MEN AND BOYS IN SREBRENICA AND IN THE SIEGE OF SARAJEVO.

EU PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN CALLED IMAGES FROM THE FUNERAL SHOCKING.

AND MY NEXT GUEST, EU ENLARGEMENT CHIEF MARTA KOS CANCELED A PLANNED VISIT TO SERBIA IN PROTEST, SAYING, "THE GLORIFICATION SURROUNDING MLADIC'S DEATH IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE VALUES ON WHICH THE EU PATH IS BUILT.

AND SHE JOINS US NOW FROM BRUSSELS.

MARTA KOS, A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> WELCOME TO YOU TOO.

>> NOW WE HAVE TO ASK AS WE HAD SEEN THE SCENES FROM THIS FUNERAL.

WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU ABOUT SERBIA'S WILLINGNESS TO ENGAGE WITH SOME OF THE MOST SHAMEFUL ACTS IN SERBIAN HISTORY TO REALLY HONOR THE MEMORIES OF THOSE VICTIMS THAT DIED AND REALLY PUT A NEW FACE ON WHAT HAPPENED A GENERATION LATER.

>> INDEED, YOU KNOW.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN SERBIA IS DEEPLY DISTURBING.

RATKO MLADIC WAS A WAR CRIMINAL, CONVICTED OF GENOCIDE AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

SO HE REPRESENTS ONE OF THE DARKEST PAGES OF EUROPE'S RECENT HISTORY.

AND GLORIFICATION, AS YOU HAVE SAID, SURROUNDING HIS DEATH AND SIGNS OF THE OFFICIAL SUPPORT ARE HIGH SENIOR OFFICIALS BEING PRESENT, PRESENT AT THE FUNERALS, THIS IS WHAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

AND IT IS NOT REPRESENTING THE VALUES EU IS BUILT ON.

THIS IS WHY I DECIDE AS A POLITICIAN, BUT ALSO AS A PERSON WHO GREW UP ON THE TERRITORY OF EX-YUGOSLAVIA, I CAN'T GO TO BELGRADE.

CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW I WOULD EVER BE ABLE TO LOOK INTO THE EYES OF MOTHERS OF SREBRENICA WHO HAVE LOST A LOT OF MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILIES.

I MET THEM MANY TIMES.

WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING.

I LEARNED A LOT FROM THEM.

SO THEY HAVE SUFFERED THE MOST, BUT THEY ARE A SYMBOL OF THE RECONCILIATION.

THEY WERE TELLING ME, YOU KNOW, WE WILL NEVER FORGET, BUT WE CAN FORGIVE.

SO WE SHOULD ALL WORK TOGETHER.

AND THIS IS WHAT I ALSO EXPECT FROM SERBIA, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT IS A CANDIDATE COUNTRY FOR THE EU MEMBERSHIP.

>> AS YOU SAY, MS.

KOS, IT WAS NOT EXACTLY AN ACT OF CONTRITION IN TERMS OF THE WAY THIS FUNERAL WAS CONDUCTED.

AND YOU MADE VERY CLEAR THAT THE VALUES THAT UNDERPIN OUR FUTURE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EU, ARE NONNEGOTIABLE.

SO I AM WONDERING WHERE THIS GOES NEXT.

WHAT DOES SERBIA HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO RIGHT THIS AND FOR YOU TO RESCHEDULE A TRIP THAT YOU HAD PLANNED THERE.

>> SERBIA, THEY WILL HAVE A PARLIAMENTARY AND PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS IN THE AUTUMN TIME.

AND WE HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND DISCUSS HOW WE WILL GO ON WITH THE EUROPEAN PARTS OF SERBIA.

THE PATHS TO THE EUROPEAN UNION REALLY REQUIRES COMING TO TERMS WITH THE PAST.

IT TAKES RECONCILIATION, BUT ALSO RESPECT FOR THE VICTIMS OF WAR CRIMES.

SO THIS IS WHAT I EXPECT.

THEN WE ALSO EXPECT FROM SERBIA CLEAR AND DETERMINED WORKING ON THE EUROPEAN PAST.

IF A COUNTRY WANTS TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EU, IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, JUST ALIGNING WITH OUR LEGISLATION.

IT IS MUCH MORE.

IT IS ABOUT OUR VALUES.

IT IS ABOUT THE STRATEGIC ORIENTATION.

AND, OF COURSE, IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT PART OF THE RECONCILIATION.

I TOLD YOU I'M COMING FROM EX-YUGOSLAVIA.

I WAS BORN THERE.

I GREW UP THERE.

SO I LIVED THERE FOR 25 YEARS IN PEACE.

AND I WOULDN'T BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING LIKE WAR CRIMES COMMITTED IN THE WARS ON THE TERRITORY OF EX-YUGOSLAVIA WERE POSSIBLE.

BUT THIS HAPPENS.

SO WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE ABOUT THE RECONCILIATION.

AND I THINK THAT IT IS ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE LEADERSHIP ALSO IN SERBIA TO HEAL THE WOUNDS OF THE PAST, BUT NOT AGAIN AND AGAIN PUT SALT ON THEM SO THEY CAN NEVER HEAL.

THIS IS ESPECIALLY A RESPONSIBILITY OF THE LEADERSHIP.

AND WE HAVE A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE.

WHAT HAPPENED IN EUROPE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

JUST FIVE YEARS AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR ENDED IN '45, FRANCE AND GERMANY, BIG ENEMIES FROM THE FIRST AND SECOND WORLD WAR, STARTED RECONCILIATION PROCESS.

AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE PAVED THE WAY THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ESTABLISH A VERY IMPORTANT COMMUNITY, EUROPEAN COMMUNITY TODAY, EUROPEAN UNION.

>> SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU'RE TALK ABOUT DEPENDS ON LEADERSHIP.

AS YOU POINTED OUT, THEY HAVE PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS NEXT MONTH.

SOME SAY THAT VUCIC COULD IN FACT BECOME PRIME MINISTER.

SO I'M WONDERING, DO YOU BELIEVE HE IS UP TO THE JOB IN TERMS OF THE COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY, BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU EXPECT OF SERBIA IN ORDER TO CONFRONT ITS PAST AND BE ON THAT PATH TO RECONCILIATION.

>> THE PEOPLE OF SERBIA WILL DECIDE AT THIS ELECTIONS WHO THEY WANT TO REPRESENT, WHO THEY WANT TO REPRESENT THEM.

SO WE WILL TALK TO EVERY GOVERNMENT, WHICH WILL BE THE RESULT OF THIS ELECTIONS.

BUT WE WILL NEVER COMPROMISE ON OUR VALUES.

THE ACCESSION PROCESS TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EU IS VERY DEMANDING.

WE ARE AWARE OF THIS.

SO WE WILL WANT TO HAVE A CLEAR DETERMINATION ALSO FROM THE NEW SERBIAN GOVERNMENT TO WALK THE EUROPEAN PATH.

BUT WORDS ARE NOT ENOUGH, YOU KNOW.

SEEING SOMETHING LIKE WE HAVE SEEN NOW IN THE CASE OF RATKO MLADIC IS DISTURBING BECAUSE SERBIA SHOULD BE CENTRAL TO THE PROCESS OF THE RECONCILIATION.

IT IS REALLY THE OPPORTUNITY WE SHOULD NOT MISS.

AND I ALSO KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN SERBIA WHO WANT THAT.

WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE WHO STOOD UP FOR ACCOUNTABILITY WHO STOOD UP FOR PLURALISM OF MEDIA, WHO STOOD UP FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

SO I STILL BELIEVE THERE IS A PLACE FOR SERBIA IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

BUT, OF COURSE, SERBIA WILL HAVE TO DO THE WAY OF THE REFORMS.

AND SERBIA WILL HAVE TO RECONCILE WITH THE PAST IN THE WAY THAT THE RECONCILIATION WILL BE POSSIBLE.

>> YOU KNOW, EVEN BEFORE WHAT YOU CALL THESE SHOCKING IMAGES, IT WAS CLEAR THAT PERHAPS SERBIA'S TIES TO RUSSIA WOULD ALSO BE PROBLEMATIC.

THE RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO SERBIA WAS AT THE FUNERAL AND SERBIA REFUSED TO JOIN IN THE SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.

HOW PROBLEMATIC IS THAT RELATIONSHIP STILL?

AND DOES IT GIVE YOU PAUSE IN TERMS OF CONSIDERING, AGAIN, THE ISSUE OF SERBIA JOINING THE EU.

>> THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, DEAR PAULA, BECAUSE WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS THAT ACTUALLY, THE WORLD IS RESTRUCTURING.

AND WE --THERE ARE COUNTRIES WHO WOULD LIKE TO BE PARTNERS TO THE EUROPEAN UNION, NOT JUST IN THE SENSE OF BECOMING A MEMBER, BUT ALSO NEW PARTNERSHIP.

SO WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT THE FUTURE, GEOPOLITICAL OR STRATEGICAL ORIENTATION OF SERBIA, SERBIA WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE IF IT'S SERIOUS ABOUT BECOMING A MEMBER OF THE EU OR RUSSIA OR CHINA ARE MORE IMPORTANT PARTNERS TO THEM.

I'M NOT SPEAKING ABOUT IT IS BLACK OR WHITE, BUT WHAT WE NEED IN THIS ALSO SITUATION, WHICH IS NOT EASY FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION, WE NEED PARTNERS WHICH WE CAN RELY ON THAT, WE CAN RELY ON THAT WHEN IT IS ABOUT OUR MAIN STRATEGIC ORIENTATION, WE CAN WORK, WE CAN WORK TOGETHER.

SO ALIGNMENT WITH OUR SECURITY AND FOREIGN POLICY WILL BE VERY MUCH IMPORTANT.

WE HAVE MEMBER STATES, NOT JUST THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, WHICH I REPRESENT, REALLY ARE LOOKING VERY CAREFULLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SERBIA.

ALSO, YOU KNOW, WHERE NOW SERBIA IS LEANING, LEANING.

SO IT IS ABOUT STRATEGICAL ORIENTATION.

IT IS ABOUT EUROPEAN VALUES.

>> AND MS.

KOS, FINALLY, FORGIVE ME, WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME.

BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

IT'S BEEN MANY YEARS SINCE I'VE BEEN TO SERBIA, BUT I DO REMEMBER THE DRIVE AND THE DETERMINATION OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THERE TO JOIN THE EU.

HOW SIGNIFICANT DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE GENERATIONAL DIVIDE?

WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM THEM?

AND DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEIR CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS SERVING THAT NEW GENERATION?

>> WHAT WE SEE IN SERBIA IS THAT SUPPORT FOR THE EUROPEAN PASS HAS BEEN FALLING IN THE PAST YEARS.

I WOULDN'T SAY THIS IS A GENERATIONAL GAP.

WHAT I SEE REALLY IS A VERY HEALTHY CORE OF PRO- EUROPEAN FORCES, BUT SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO GET ENOUGH MEDIA SPACE.

THEY HAVE DIFFICULTIES BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF WORKING AGAINST THE INTERESTS OF SERBIA.

SO WE ALL TOGETHER ALSO FROM MY SIDE AND THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, WE SHOULD HELP THOSE DEMOCRATIC FORCES.

I THINK THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN THE WORLD AROUND US, NOT JUST HERE IN EUROPE, IS A CLEAR SIGN THAT, YOU KNOW, THE LIKE-MINDED COUNTRIES ARE WORKING MORE AND MORE AND MORE TOGETHER.

AND THIS IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE ALSO WITH MY TEAM ACHIEVE WITH SERBIA.

AND, OF COURSE, WORKING STRONGLY NOT ONLY WITH THE YOUNG GENERATION IN SERBIA, BUT WITH ALL THE SERBIAN PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY WHO BELIEVE IN THE EUROPEAN PASS, AND THE VALUES ARE COMMON NOT JUST TO THE EUROPEAN UNION, BUT ALSO TO SOME OTHER NATIONS.

CIRCUMSTANCES MARTA KOS, GRATEFUL FOR THE FRANK AND CANDID CONVERSATION.

APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.

NOW MLADIC WAS FOUND GUILTY OF GENOCIDE BY AN INTERNATIONAL COURT AFTER THE CRIMES HE COMMITTED OF THE BREAKUP OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, AS YOU'RE HEARING THERE.

BUT MANY IN SERBIA STILL CONSIDER HIM A NATIONAL HERO.

THOSE KINDS OF PICTURES ATTEST TO THAT.

AND IT'S THE FUNERAL THAT SPARKED SUCH A BACKLASH IN EUROPE.

JULIAN BORGER REPORTED FOR YEARS FROM THE BALKANS AND WROTE ABOUT THE ROAD TO MLADIC'S ARREST IN HIS BOOK "THE BUTCHER'S TRAIL. "

HE JOINS US NOW FROM LONDON.

I DO WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I DO WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION FROM MS.

KOS.

AS I SAID, IT WAS A FRANK CONVERSATION.

AND CLEARLY BEING SOMEONE WHO GREW UP IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, THIS HAS TOUCHED HER DEEPLY AND PERHAPS A REFLECTION OF HOW PEOPLE ARE FEELING ABOUT THESE SHOCKING SCENES FROM THIS FUNERAL.

>> YES.

I MEAN, WHAT WE SAW IN SERBIA HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY CHILLING AND REALLY SHOWED THAT THE PULL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION IN TERMS OF CHANGING THE UNDERPINNINGS OF SERBIAN POLITICS HAS NOT REALLY WORKED.

THE ATTRACTION, AS MANY PEOPLE AFTER THE WAR ENDED BELIEVED THAT ALL THE CONSTITUENT STATES OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA WOULD RUSH TOWARDS EUROPE, AND THIS WOULD SOMEHOW SOLVE THE PROBLEM, THAT HASN'T HAPPENED, PARTICULARLY IN SERBIA AND IN BOSNIA.

AND REALLY, WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING WITH MLADIC, MLADIC AS A HERO RETURNED TO SERBIA HAS SHOWN THAT VIVIDLY.

>> SO YOU BELIEVE IT'S UNCOVERED SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN OBVIOUS ALL ALONG, THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT FORCES AT WORK IN SERBIA.

AND THIS WAS EMBLEMATIC OF WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE?

>> YES.

I MEAN, TO SEE SOMEONE WHO WAS CONVICTED OF GENOCIDE BEING GIVEN THIS KIND OF WELCOME IS REALLY A REMINDER THAT THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THOSE MASS ATROCITIES THAT CULMINATED IN GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA IS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE, AND NOT JUST SORT OF IN THE BACK STREETS OF SERBIA, BUT IT'S INGRAINED IN SERBIAN INSTITUTIONS, THE SERBIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS THERE.

THE PATRIARCH OF THE CHURCH WAS THERE TO OVERSEE THE CEREMONY.

THE ARMY WAS THERE.

GOVERNMENT MINISTERS WERE THERE.

ALSO, IN THE FOOTBALL TEAMS THERE WAS A MATCH THE OTHER DAY BETWEEN TWO BELGRADE TEAMS.

AND THEY UNFOLD THIS ENORMOUS BANNER OF MLADIC, MLADIC'S FACE THAT COVERED AN ENTIRE STAND IN THE STADIUM.

WHAT'S REALLY CHILLING ABOUT THAT IS THE WORDS THAT ACCOMPANIED IT.

IT SAID "DIRECTION POTACHARY. "

IT'S NOT JUST NEAR SREBRENICA, BUT IT IN PARTICULAR IS WHERE SOME OF THE WORST ATROCITIES HAPPENED.

SO IT'S VERY CLEAR THE SENSE AND THE KIND OF ACTIVISTIC NATURE OF THESE NATIONALIST SENTIMENTS HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO THE SURFACE BY THE RETURN OF MLADIC.

>> AS YOU KNOW WELL, CHRISTIANE WENT FACE-TO-FACE WITH MLADIC IN 1993.

FOR THOSE WHO DID NOT LIVE THROUGH IT, CAN YOU BRING US BACK TO THOSE TIMES?

AND BEFORE WE DO THAT, LET'S HEAR CHRISTIANE'S CONFRONTATION THERE WITH RATKO MLADIC.

LET'S LISTEN.

>> YOUR OWN PEOPLE AND YOUR SOLDIERS, TO THEM YOU'RE A GREAT MAN, YOU'RE A HERO.

TO YOUR ENEMIES, YOU'RE SOMEBODY TO BE FEARED AND SOMEBODY TO BE HATED.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> Translator: VERY INTERESTING QUESTION.

BOTH THINGS YOU SAY ARE CORRECT.

>> I MEAN, IT'S BREATHTAKING TO HEAR IT NOW SO MANY YEARS ON.

IT IS INCONGRUENT, RIGHT, IT IS DIFFICULT TO REALLY PARSE WHAT WE JUST HEARD THERE WITH THE FUNERAL SCENES, SUCH AN HONOR BEING BESTOWED ON THIS MAN.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT REALLY BRINGS ACROSS THE CHARACTER OF THE MAN.

HE WAS ALWAYS SEEMED TO BE BOILING OVER WITH RAGE.

AND HE WAS AN ETHNIC NATIONALIST WHO HATED OTHER ETHNICITIES.

IN A PURE FORM, WE SAW THE MUSLIM BOSNIANS AS TURKS.

HE WAS ONCE ASKED BY AN AMERICAN DIPLOMATIC IF HE'D EVER BEEN ABROAD.

AND HE SAID WELL, I WENT TO SWITZERLAND ONCE, BUT DIDN'T LIKE THE BEER.

HE WAS VERY MUCH A SMALL WORLD NATIONALIST WHO EVEN IN PRISON WOULDN'T MINGLE WITH OTHER ETHNICITIES, UNLIKE MANY OF THE CONVICTED WAR CRIMINALS THERE.

HE WAS IN A WAY THE EMBODIMENT OF THE PUREST FORM OF THIS STRAIN OF NATIONALISM THAT IS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE IN THE REGION.

>> YEAH, INCREDIBLY DEFIANT TO THE LAST.

AS YOU KNOW WELL, MLADIC WAS ON THE RUN FOR SOME 14 YEARS, AND YOUR BOOK FOCUSES ON THAT MANHUNT TO TRY TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE.

I MEAN, WHAT STANDS OUT AS THE MOST NOTABLE PART OF THIS TIME THAT HE SO SUCCESSFULLY EVADED JUSTICE?

>> I THINK THE MOST NOTABLE PART OF IT WAS THAT FOR MOST OF THAT TIME, HE WAS SHELTERED BY THE SERBIAN ARMY.

NOW AT THE TIME OF THE BOSNIAN WAR, SERBIA, BELGRADE ALWAYS DENIED THAT IT WAS BEHIND THE WAR, THAT WAS ORCHESTRATING FORCES AND THE ETHNIC CLEANSING IN BOSNIA.

BUT AS SOON AS THE WAR IS OVER AND MLADIC NEEDED PROTECTION, HE WENT OVER TO SERBIA, AND THE ARMY STEPPED IN NOT ONLY TO PROTECT HIM, BUT TO LOOK AFTER HIM.

THEY HAD A WHOLE UNIT THAT WAS DEDICATED TO HIDING HIM AND LOOKING AFTER HIS EVERY NEED.

AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS WITH THE FUNERAL WAS A REMINDER OF THAT, THAT THIS --HE WAS REALLY SERBIA'S MAN IN BOSNIA, AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE.

>> YEAH, AN INTERESTING REMIND THEY'RE YOU GIVE US, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE BRING IT BACK TO PRESENT DAY POLITICS HERE.

VUCIC DID NOT ATTEND THE FUNERAL.

HIS SON DID.

BUT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT HE CHAMPIONED RATKO MLADIC IN THE PAST.

VUCIC SERVED AS THE INFORMATION MINISTER UNDER SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC.

AND HE IS REALLY TRYING TO BALANCE HIS NATIONAL BASE TO THIS DAY, OBVIOUSLY FOR LEVERAGE.

SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS RELATIONSHIP GOES NOW, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK VUCIC'S NEXT MOVE IS?

BECAUSE HE CLEARLY IS USING THIS KIND OF NATIONALISM TO GREAT EXTENT FOR LEVERAGE IN HIS POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

>> YEAH.

I THINK NATIONALISM IS THE MOST POWERFUL TOOL, POLITICAL TOOL IN SERBIA.

HE WILL CONTINUE TO USE IT.

OBVIOUSLY HIS NEXT MOVE IS THE CALLING OF SNAP ELECTIONS AND MOVE SIDEWAYS FROM PRESIDENT, PRIME MINISTER AND LOCATE POLITICAL POWER IN THE POSITION OF PRIME MINISTER, AND REALLY, HE -- HIS ROLE IS ALL ABOUT THE PROMOTION AND PROPAGATION OF HIS OWN CONTROL OVER POLITICS.

AND TO DO THAT, HE WILL USE -- HE WILL USE NATIONALISM, THIS POWERFUL TOOL, BUT HE WILL ALSO HOLD UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE COULD BE HEADING TOWARDS THE EUROPEAN UNION BY KEEPING THE BALL ROLLING, OR HOWEVER STALLED IT IS, KEEP ALIVE THAT POSSIBILITY WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HAVING CROSS RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA, THEIR TRADITIONAL ALLY, AND CHINA, THE NEW POWER.

AND HE WILL -- HE WILL TRY AND TRIANGULATE THOSE FORCES IN A WAY THAT IS MOST LIKE TO GUARANTEE HIS HOLD ON POWER.

>> YEAH, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THAT BALANCING ACT CONTINUES HERE.

YOU HEARD MS.

KOS, WHO WAS ESPECIALLY GIVEN HER BACKGROUND GROWING UP IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, WAS RESOLUTE ABOUT WHERE THE EU STANDS NOW.

JULIAN BORGER WE DO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

I DO WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, WITH THE U. S. MIDTERMS LESS THAN TWO MONTHS AWAY, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE AMPING THE RHETORIC AS THEY CAMPAIGN IN WHAT WILL BE CRUCIAL ELECTIONS, OF COURSE.

IT COMES AT A TIME WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S APPROVAL RATINGS ARE AT THEIR LOWEST, AND THE PARTISAN RIVALRY FEELS STARKER THAN EVER.

UTAH GOVERNOR SPENCER COX HAS BEEN CALLING FOR AN END TO POLITICAL POLARIZATION IN AMERICA FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW, AND IT'S TAKEN ON AN EVEN MORE RESONANCE FOLLOWING THE ASSASSINATION OF CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST CHARLIE KIRK LAST YEAR.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO TALK ABOUT THE KEY TO FOSTERING POLITICAL HARMONY IN AMERICA.

>> THANK YOU.

AND GOVERNOR SPENCER COX, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE THIS NEW BOOK CALLED "OFF-RAMP. "

AND THE SUBTITLE IS HOTTEST HOW TO TO BE A PEACE MAKER IN AN AMT OF CONTEMPT.

YOU INFUSE IT WITH A LOT OF POWER.

THAT'S AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> LOTS OF EXPERTS HAVE TALKED ABOUT WHAT CONTEMPT AND WHAT IT ISN'T.

WE THINK OF HATE AS KIND OF THE WORST THING THAT COULD BE HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND I THINK THERE IS EVEN A LEVEL BEYOND HATE, BECAUSE AT LEAST WHEN WE'RE ARGUING OR DISAGREEING PASSIONATELY WITH EACH OTHER, WE'RE HAVING SOME SORT OF INTERACTION.

CONTEMPT IS --THINKS THAT YOUR OPPONENT IS BENEATH YOU, THAT THEY'RE NOT WORTH ENGAGING IN.

THEY'RE UNWORTHY OF OUR EVEN OUR DISAGREEMENT.

I TALK ABOUT A FAMOUS PSYCHOLOGIST WHO WORKS WITH MARRIED COUPLES AND SAYS THAT WHEN HE SEES A COUPLE LIKE ROLLING THEIR EYES AT THEIR SPOUSE, HE KNOWS THAT MARRIAGE IS IN TROUBLE.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF THAT HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY TODAY.

AND I THINK THIS MARRIAGE --THIS AMERICAN MARRIAGE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS IS NOT VERY HEALTHY RIGHT NOW.

>> WAIT, IT'S GONE WAY BEYOND EYE ROLLING.

I MEAN, THIS IS REALLY HATEFUL, SPITEFUL CONTEMPT THAT PEOPLE FEEL.

WHAT CAUSES THAT TYPE OF CONTEMPT?

>> WELL, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT WE KNOW IS CAUSING THAT.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BECOME A CANCER IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY.

THE WAY WE LOOK AT EACH OTHER.

THE CONFLICT ENTREPRENEURS THAT EXIST OUT THERE, THAT MAKE MONEY OFF OF DIVIDING US, AND WE'VE GOTTEN SO POLARIZED AND ADOPTED THE WRONG TRIBES.

I'VE RESEARCHED A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH COMMUNITY, AND WE USED TO HAVE VERY STRONG COMMUNITIES IN THIS COUNTRY GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO ALEXIS de TOCQUEVILLE IN THE 1880 s. WE DON'T HAVE THAT.

WE'RE LONIER THAN ANY TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

WE HAVE FEWER FRIENDS.

SO WE'RE DESPERATELY SEEKING THAT BELONGING, AND WE'RE FINDING IT MORE OFTEN IN POLITICS THAN IN RELIGION OR VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATIONS OR ROTARY CLUBS.

AND POLITICS IS AN UNHEALTHY TRIBE.

AND SO IF SOMEBODY IS NOT A PART OF OUR TRIBE, THEN WE, AGAIN, WE TEAR THEM DOWN.

WE LOOK DOWN AT THEM.

WE THINK THEY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO OFFER.

AND THAT'S A PRETTY DANGEROUS FORMULA FOR OUR COUNTRY.

>> I KNOW THAT JONATHAN HAIGHT HAS BEEN PART OF THIS BOOK.

AND I KNOW HIS PHILOSOPHY, YOU'VE EMBRACED IT.

YOU'VE TRIED TO GET OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND HOW PROBLEMATIC YOU THINK SOCIAL MEDIA IS.

>> YEAH, SO LOOK, UTAH WAS THE FIRST STATE IN THE NATION TO REALLY TAKE ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.

WE LED OUT.

OF COURSE THERE IS A BIG SETTLEMENT RECENTLY WITH META BECAUSE OF SOME OF THAT WORK AS OTHER STATES HAVE COME ALONG.

I APPRECIATE JONATHAN HIGHT WHO WROTE THE FORWARD TO THE BOOK AND THE GREAT WORK HE IS DOING THERE.

I PERSONALLY I HAVE TO ADMIT I WAS ADDICTED TO TWITTER AND X. SPENDING WAY TOO MUCH TIME OWN SOCIAL MEDIA.

DECEMBER I MADE AN IMPORTANT DECISION THAT I NEEDED TO GET OFF AND I NEEDED TO UNPLUG A LITTLE MORE.

AND IT WAS TRULY REMARKABLE WHAT HAPPENED.

SO MUCH OF THE ANGER THAT I FELT EVERY DAY LEFT.

I HAD MORE TIME TO FOCUS.

ACTUALLY MORE TIME TO WRITE THIS BOOK, THAT WAS PART OF IT, TO BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY SIT DOWN AND ENGAGE, TO THINK DEEPLY.

BUT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT, MORE TIME TO SPEND WITH MY FAMILY.

I WAS PRESENT MORE THAN WHEN WE WERE TOGETHER AT FAMILY MEALS OR GET-TOGETHERS.

AND ULTIMATELY, I BELIEVE THAT THAT'S WHAT OUR COUNTRY NEEDS.

THE DIVISIVENESS THAT WE'RE SEEING OUT THERE IS BEING DRIVEN IN LARGE PART BY THESE ALGORITHMS THAT ARE DESIGNED TO REALLY ATTACK OUR BRAINS, TO OVERTAKE OUR AGENCY, AND TO DRIVE US TO HATE ONE ANOTHER.

AND THEY'VE GOTTEN REALLY GOOD AT IT.

AND I DON'T PRETEND THAT A GOVERNOR OR A PRESIDENT IS GOING THE FIX THIS.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE ALL OF US TAKING A STEP BACK AND STARTING TO CARE MORE ABOUT OUR NEIGHBORS THAN WE DO ABOUT WINNING AN ONLINE ARGUMENT.

>> YOU SAY HOW WONDERFUL IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT OFF SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT I READ THE BOOK.

FOR A FEW DAYS YOU WERE LIKE AN ADDICT TRYING TO RECOVER.

IS THIS THING ADDICTIVE?

AND IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY IT'S ADDICTIVE, BY DESIGN.

THEY'VE GOT SOME OF THE BEST RESEARCHERS, THE BEST PSYCHOLOGISTS IN THE WORLD WHO UNDERSTAND HOW TO GET US ADDICTED, HOW TO KEEP US SCROLLING.

ALL OF THESE NEW INVENTIONS THAT THEY COME UP WITH ARE ALL DESIGNED TO KEEP US ON THEIR PRODUCT LONGER.

AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THE ALGORITHM KNOWS HOW LONG WE SPEND LOOKING AT A PICTURE, LOOKING AT A POST.

IT FEEDS US MORE OF WHAT WE WANT, AND YES, WE GET ADDICTED.

I WAS ADDICTED.

WHEN I GOT OFF, JUST LIKE A RAT TRYING TO GET FENTANYL WATER, I'M PUSHING THAT BUTTON 40 TIMES A DAY, AND THERE IS NO BUTTON LEFT IN MY PHONE.

I WOULD PULL IT OUT INSTINCT ILY, AND THERE WAS NOTHING THERE.

THAT'S WHEN I REALLY KNEW I HAD A PROBLEM.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS WEEK IS THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THE KILLING OF CHARLIE KIRK, AND THAT'S WHEN YOU BECAME A BIG NATIONAL FIGURE BECAUSE YOU EXPRESS THE SORROW AND HOW GRUESOME THIS WAS, BUT ALSO TRIED TO HEAL, TRIED TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER, TRIED IN SOME WAYS YOU CALLED FOR PEACEMAKING.

IN THIS BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW PEOPLE REACTED AGAINST THAT, AND YOU FOUND IT EXASPERATING.

EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED.

>> WELL, LET ME JUST SAY AGAIN, THIS WAS A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED IN MY STATE.

THE HIGHEST PROFILE POLITICAL ASSASSINATION IN 50 YEARS.

AND IT HAPPENED HERE.

AND WE WERE DEVASTATED BY THAT.

AND OF COURSE MY FIRST THOUGHT IS WITH ERICA AND THE KIDS, HIS PARENTS, HIS FAMILY.

JUST A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE TRAGEDY.

AND BY AND LARGE, THE RESPONSE WAS THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE, THAT THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

THIS IS AWFUL.

I HEARD FROM DEMOCRATIC LEADERS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO REACHED OUT TO EXPRESS THEIR SYMPATHY AND THEIR REGRET AT WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND HOW TERRIBLE THIS IS.

BUT THEN I OPENED SOCIAL MEDIA, AND I SAW --AND AGAIN, THESE ARE MINORITY, BUT A GROWING SADLY MINORITY IN OUR COUNTRY, SOME OF WHOM NOT ONLY WERE THEY NOT SAD, BUT SOME OF WHOM WERE CELEBRATING THE TRAGEDY.

AND THEN SOME WHO WERE MAD AT ME FOR TRYING TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE AND MAD AT OTHERS WHO WERE TRYING TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE.

AND SO THAT'S --I HAD ALREADY STARTED WRITING THIS BOOK, BUT THAT REALLY HELPED TO PUSH ME TO FINISH IT.

WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

WE CAN'T SOLVE OUR DEBATES BY SHOOTING EACH OTHER.

WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES OF DEBATE, DISAGREEMENT, PASSIONATE ARGUING IS FINE.

WE SHOULDN'T COMPROMISE OUR PRINCIPLES, BUT WE ALSO SHOULD BE BUILDING COALITIONS THE WAY THE FOUNDERS INTENDED TO SOLVE OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

>> YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THE STRONGEST SUPPORTER AS PRESIDENT TRUMP, EVEN AS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR.

BUT AFTER HE WAS SHOT, YOU DECIDED TO ENDORSE HIM, AND YOU KIND OF ASKED HIM A FAVOR.

YOU SAID OKAY, I WANT TO ENDORSE YOU, BUT HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT FAVOR WAS, AND MAYBE HOW DISAPPOINTED YOU WERE WHEN IT DIDN'T SEEM LIKE IT CAME TO FRUITION.

>> WELL, LOOK, THE PRESIDENT AND I HAD A LONG HISTORY.

I DID NOT SUPPORT HIM.

I HADN'T VOTED FOR HIM.

AND AT THAT POINT WHEN HE -- WHEN THERE WAS AN ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION ON HIS LIFE, I JUST FELT THIS OVERWHELMING NEED THAT I NEEDED TO BE A PEACEMAKER, AND I NEEDED TO REPAIR THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER, KNOWING THAT WE WOULD LIKELY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK TOGETHER OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

AND SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DID.

I WROTE HIM A LETTER, REACHING OUT TO HIM, ASKING IF HE WOULD CONSIDER TAKING ON THIS ROLE.

I FELT HE HAD A REALLY UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY IN THE WAKE OF THAT ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION ON HIS LIFE TO HELP BEAUTIFY THE COUNTRY AND BRING US TOGETHER.

NOW, IF HE WERE HERE WITH YOU, HE WOULD TELL YOU --IN FACT, HE SAID THIS AFTER THE DEATH OF CHARLIE KIRK.

HE SAID "CHARLIE SAID WE SHOULD FORGIVE OUR ENEMIES, BUT I CAN'T DO THAT.

I HATE MY ENEMIES. "

THAT WAS HIS APPROACH.

HE HAS A VERY DIFFERENT APPROACH.

HE DECIDED THAT WAS NOT THE DIRECTION THAT HE WANTED TO GO.

AND YET WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO WORK VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER ON IMPORTANT ISSUES.

AND I HAVE TO SAY AFTER THE --AFTER CHARLIE'S DEATH, I MEAN, HE REACHED OUT TO ME, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE --THE PEOPLE THAT WANTED HIM DEAD, HIS CONCERNS ABOUT THE FUTURE, AND HE WAS SUPPORTIVE OF ME THROUGHOUT THAT PROCESS AND THE DECISIONS THAT WE WERE MAKING TO HELP TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE A BIT.

SO WHILE WE SEE THE WORLD DIFFERENT LIVE ON THIS ISSUE, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE BOOK IS CAN WE HAVE A RELATIONSHIP.

AND REALLY FOCUS --AS MUCH AS THE NATIONAL PROBLEMS CONCERN ME, THIS --I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IT AND WRITING ABOUT HOW TO FOCUS ON OUR INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITHIN OUR FAMILIES, WITHIN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS, WHEN OUR FRIEND ZONE.

TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE LOST FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS TO POLITICS, AND WE HAVE TO GET BACK.

WE HAVE TO WIN THEM BACK.

AND THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS THAN JUST POLITICS.

AND I'VE HAD TO PRACTICE THAT.

WITH BOTH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT BIDEN, FIGURING OUT HOW TO WORK CLOSELY WITH PEOPLE I DISAGREE WITH.

>> BUT YOU SAY THAT POLARIZATION IS THE DEFINING ISSUE OF OUR TIME AND IS REALLY THE BIGGEST DANGER.

AND YOU'VE JUST SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREES WITH YOU.

HE SAYS OF HIS ENEMIES, "I CAN'T TRY TO WORK WITH THEM.

I HAVE CONTEMPT --TO USE YOUR WORD, HATRED FOR THEM.

THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM AND PEOPLE SUPPORT HIM WITH HIS VIEW OF THE WORLD THAT WAY?

>> SO, LOOK, PEOPLE ARE MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN ANY ONE DECISION.

AND CERTAINLY THAT'S TRUE OF MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE OF ME ALSO.

YES, LOOK, I THINK THAT POLITICAL LEADERS SHOULD DO BETTER.

ONE OF THE REASONS I TOOK ON THIS PROJECT WORKING WITH THE NATIONAL GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION.

I WISH EVERY GOVERNOR AND EVERY PRESIDENT AND EVERY MAYOR AND EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS WOULD HELP TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE.

BY THE WAY, I'M NOT GREAT AT THIS.

THE INCENTIVES --THE INCENTIVES RIGHT NOW IN OUR COUNTRY ARE TOWARDS CONTEMPT AND HATE AND ANGER.

THE ALGORITHMS, RIGHT, YOU GET MORE PLAY ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

YOU GET MORE PLAY ON TRADITIONAL MEDIA.

IF YOU'RE OUTLANDISH AND YOU SAY WILD THINGS AND YOU'RE LOUD AND PROVOCATIVE.

SO EVERYTHING WOULD PUSH US TOWARDS THAT.

AND YET THAT'S NOT GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AND SO I NEED THIS LESSON AS MUCH AS ANYBODY.

DO I WISH WE HAD PRESIDENTS THAT WERE TRYING TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE?

YEAH, 100%.

BUT I DON'T THINK, AGAIN, THAT THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO BE SOLVED OR THAT WE CAN JUST BLAME IT ON POLITICAL LEADERS.

EVERY TIME WE POST ON FACEBOOK OR SOCIAL MEDIA, EVERY TIME WE TREAT SOMEONE ELSE AS OUR ENEMY INSTEAD OF OUR FELLOW AMERICAN, THEN WE'RE ALSO PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND THIS -- THIS IS AN ATTEMPT FROM ME TO LOOK INSIDE OF ME AND TO TRY TO HOLD MYSELF ACCOUNTABLE AS WELL.

>> WHEN YOU WERE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR AT ONE POINT, YOU MADE AN AD WITH YOUR OPPONENT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND WHY.

>> YEAH.

SO THIS WAS IN 2020.

IN UTAH, WE RUN ON THE PRESIDENTIAL CYCLE.

SO IF YOU THINK BACK TO 2020, WHAT WAS HAPPENING DURING THAT TIME, OF COURSE COVID, GEORGE FLOYD, A TERRIBLE SUMMER, TEARING US APART AS A COUNTRY.

AND A FRIEND OF MINE SAID HEY, ISN'T THERE SOMETHING YOU CAN DO?

I THOUGHT WHAT CAN I DO?

I'M JUST RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OF UTAH.

BUT THAT QUESTION REALLY HAUNTED ME.

AND I TELL THIS STORY ABOUT I JUST DECIDED THAT I NEED TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING.

SO I CALLED MY OPPONENT, A DEMOCRAT.

HIS NAME IS CHRIS PETERSEN, A WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING.

WE DISAGREE ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, BUT WE BOTH AGREED THAT WE CARE ABOUT OUR COUNTRY, CARE ABOUT OUR STATE, AND THAT WE CAN DISAGREE WITHOUT HATING EACH OTHER.

SO I MADE THIS CRAZY ASK.

I SAID HEY, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO FILM AN AD TOGETHER IN WHICH WE SAY JUST THAT, THAT WE'RE -- I'M RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

CHRIS SAYS I'M RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

I HOPE YOU VOTE FOR ME, BUT WE DISAGREE ON SO MANY THINGS, BUT WE BOTH AGREE THAT WE CAN DISAGREE WITHOUT HATING EACH OTHER, THAT OUR COUNTRY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EITHER OF US, THAT WE CARE ABOUT THE STATE OF UTAH, THAT WE'LL ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION, WHATEVER THEY ARE.

AND TO HIS CREDIT, HE AGREED TO DO IT.

WE FILMED THE AD.

WE PUT IT OUT.

IT WENT VIRAL.

MILLIONS OF HITS WITHIN 24 HOURS.

AND IT JUST SHOWED ME, AGAIN, THAT THIS NATION IS HUNGRY FOR SOMETHING BETTER.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, THE NATION IS HUNGRY FOR THIS.

WHY ISN'T THERE A WAY, OR IS THERE A WAY THAT THERE COULD BE A THIRD MOVEMENT, LET ME CALL IT, OR SOMETHING WHERE THE 70% OF AMERICANS WHO ARE HUNGRY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS SAY, ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

>> YEAH, WELL, LOOK, I THINK IF EVER THERE WAS A TIME, IT MIGHT BE RIPE FOR IT NOW.

IT'S REALLY HARD THE WAY OUR SYSTEM IS SET UP, IT'S KIND OF SET UP FOR THIS BINARY TWO PARTIES.

BUT THERE ARE INCENTIVES WITHIN THE PARTIES THAT STILL EXIST FOR THIS.

WE DO SEE IT IN ELECTIONS STILL.

IT HAPPENS.

PEOPLE GET TIRED OF ONE SIDE AND THEY'RE GOING THE OTHER SIDE.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS I ARGUE IS THAT NO PARTY HAS LOST BAD ENOUGH IN THE LAST TEN YEARS TO LEARN ANY LESSONS.

SO WE JUST KEEP THINKING, WELL, THE COUNTRY WILL GET ANGRY WITH WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE AND WE'LL GET OUR TURN NEXT TIME WITHOUT ACTUALLY EVER DOING ANYTHING DIFFERENT.

BUT WE DO SEE POCKETS OF THIS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO PROVE IS THAT THIS TYPE OF WORK, THIS TYPE OF EFFORT, THIS TYPE OF DEPOLARIZATION WORK ACTUALLY WOULDN'T HURT YOU RUNNING FOR OFFICE, AND IT COULD HELP YOU.

SO WE REACHED OUT THE STANFORD.

AND THEY HAD A DEPOLARIZATION LAB THERE WHERE THEY STUDY INTERVENTIONS AND DIFFERENT RESEARCHERS WHO ARE WORKING ON THIS TYPE OF DEPOLARIZATION WORK.

AND WE ASKED THEM TO STUDY --ACTUALLY, THEY STUDIED MY AD WE EVEN KNEW ABOUT IT.

AND THEN WE FILMED SOME MORE ADS WITH OTHER GOVERNORS JUST LIKE THIS, A REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT TOGETHER.

AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS AFTER SURVEYING OF THOUSANDS OF CITIZENS WHO WATCHED THESE VIDEOS WAS NOT ONLY DID NOT HURT EITHER GOVERNOR OR EITHER POLITICIAN, IT ACTUALLY HELPED THEM.

THE PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THEM WERE MORE FAVORABLE.

SO WE'RE TRYING TO PROVE USING RESEARCH THAT THIS IS GOOD POLITICS.

SO EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT JUST FOR THE GOOD OF OUR COUNTRY, IF YOU'RE VERY MACHIAVELLIAN AND YOU JUST WANT TO WIN THE NEXT ELECTION, THEN THIS CAN ACTUALLY HELP YOU WIN THE INTERSECTION ELECTION.

AND I HOPE THAT THAT WILL INSPIRE.

WE HAVE MANY GOVERNORS WHO HAVE STEPPED UP TO DO, OVER 20 NOW WHO ARE WORKING WITH NONPROFIT TO HELP PRODUCE THESE ADS, THAT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WILL BE INSPIRED TO SAY HEY, I CAN RUN FOR OFFICE IF I CAN DO IT THIS WAY.

I DON'T WANT TO TEAR SOMEONE DOWN.

BUT IF WE CAN RUN A RESPECTFUL CAMPAIGN WITH NO NEGATIVE ADS AND WIN, THAT'S SOMETHING WORTH TRYING.

>> YEAH, SCIENTISTS HAVE WHAT THEY CALL THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING, THE WAY YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO UNITE RELATIVITY THEORY, QUANTUM THEORY, ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

AND YOU HAVE A BIT OF THAT WHICH IS A THEORY OF EVERYTHING FOR OUR SOCIETY, SOCIAL SCIENCE.

IT'S HOW IT ALL FITS TOGETHER.

TELL US THAT.

>> YES.

SO MY THEORY OF EVERYTHING IN SOCIAL SCIENCES, POLARIZATION, CERTAINLY.

INCARCERATION RATES, DRUG ADDICTIONS, THE GAMBLING ADDICTIONS, ALL OF IT, ALL OF THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS, HOMELESSNESS THAT WE'RE FACING IN OUR COUNTRY, I BELIEVE THE SOLUTION TO ALL OF THOSE IS COMMUNITY.

THAT'S THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING.

BUILDING STRONG COMMUNITIES.

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE IT.

I MENTIONED ALL THE WAY BACK TO ALEXIS de TOCQUEVILLE.

WHEN HE CAME HERE IN THE 1830s, WE HAD THESE ASSOCIATIONS THAT WERE SOLVING PROBLEMS.

MANY OF THEM RELIGIOUS, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

AND THE ANSWER TO OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS EXIST IN GETTING TO KNOW YOUR NEIGHBOR, STEPPING UP WHEN SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS.

I'M VERY FORTUNATE TO LIVE IN THE STATE THAT LEADS THE NATION IN WHAT WE CALL SOCIAL CAPITAL, AND THAT SOCIAL CAPITAL IS EXACTLY THAT, THE WAY WE RESPOND AS A COMMUNITY TO HELP EACH OTHER, TO LIFT EACH OTHER.

WE LEAD THE NATION IN RATES OF UPWARD MOBILITY.

WHICH MEANS IF YOU'RE BORN IN POVERTY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY IN POVERTY.

WE LEAD THE NATION IN VOLUNTEERISM AND CHARITABLE GIVING.

AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS LEAD TO MORE POSITIVE OUTCOMES.

AND WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO THAT.

AND I'M SO GRATEFUL FOR PEOPLE WHO DO GIVE BACK, WHO CARE ABOUT THEIR COMMUNITIES, WHO SACRIFICE FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

THOSE VIRTUES THAT WERE SO IMPORTANT TO BENJAMIN FRANKLIN AND THOMAS JEFFERSON AND OTHERS THAT WE'VE GOTTEN AWAY FROM FOR SO LONG, WE NEED A RETURN TO VIRTUE IN THIS COUNTRY, A RETURN TO CARING ABOUT OTHER IMPEACHMENT.

>> GOVERNOR SPENCER COX, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

> >> THIS WEEK'S 25th ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11 IS BEING COMMEMORATED IN CANADA, WHERE 24 CITIZENS DIED IN THE ATTACK.

THE ANNIVERSARY COMES AT A TENSE TIME FOR THE U. S. AND CANADA AS RETALIATORY TARIFFS ON AMERICAN GOODS WENT INTO EFFECT EARLY THIS MORNING.

BUT IN 2001, RELATIONS WERE SO MUCH WARMER AFTER THE UNITED STATES CLOSED ITS AIRSPACE, MORE THAN 6,000 AIRLINE PASSENGERS, MANY AMERICAN WERE DEVOTED TO GANDER, NEWFOUNDLAND IN CANADA'S NORTHEAST.

NOW A MUSICAL INSPIRED AT THAT TIME CALLED "COME FROM AWAY" CELEBRATES GANDER'S WARM HOSPITALITY IN A TIME OF NEED.

THE SHOW WAS A LONG-RUNNING HIT ON BROADWAY.

MORE THAN 100 PRODUCTIONS ARE STILL PLAYING AROUND THE WORLD.

IN 2019, CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH "COME FROM AWAY" CREATORS, DAVID HEIN AND IRENE SANKOFF ABOUT THE SURPRISING GLOBAL POWER OF ITS MESSAGE.

>> DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THIS STORY WOULD RESONATE SO INCREDIBLY POWERFULLY?

>> NO.

WELL -- >> WE HOPED SO.

>> YEAH.

>> IT'S A WONDERFUL STORY, AND IT'S EXTRAORDINARY WHAT THESE PEOPLE DID IN NEWFOUNDLAND WELCOMING ALL THESE PEOPLE.

IN BUT I THINK AT FIRST WE WERE MOSTLY THINKING CANADIAN HIGH SCHOOLS WOULD BE FORCED TO PERFORM IT.

>> SCHOOL DRAMA LESSONS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> EXACTLY.

WITH CANADIAN CONTENT.

>> I THINK IT'S A TESTAMENT, THOUGH, TO THIS STORY.

RIGHT I KNOW IT'S A STORY ABOUT PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER DESPITE THEIR DIFFERENCES, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE TO A TRAGEDY, RESPONDING WITH KINDNESS.

AND IT'S CERTAINLY BEEN A GOOD STORY FOR US.

AND IT FEELS LIKE IT'S AN IMPORTANT STORY TO TELL RIGHT NOW.

>> SO LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

JUST GIVE ME THE SORT OF NUTS AND BOLTS AROUND THE STORY.

WE KNOW ALL OF US WHO WERE AROUND DURING 9/11, WE KNOW THAT THE U. S. AIRSPACE WAS CLOSED, THAT PLANES COULDN'T COME IN.

THEY COULDN'T TAKE OFF.

THERE WERE PLANES ALREADY IN THE AIR CIRCLING.

WHERE WERE THEY TO GO?

THEY WENT TO -- >> THEY WENT TO CANADA.

OVER 200 PLANES WERE LANDED ACROSS CANADA.

AND 38 OF THOSE WENT TO A TOWN CALLED GANDER, NEWFOUNDLAND.

AND NEARLY DOUBLED THE POPULATION IN AN INSTANT.

AND WHAT IS AMAZING IS NOT ONLY DID THEY ACCEPT THE PLANES, NOT KNOWING WHO WAS ON THEM, NOT KNOWING WHAT TO EXPECT, BUT THEY LET PEOPLE OFF OF THE PLANES, INTO THEIR COMMUNITY BUILDINGS, STOPPED SCHOOL FOR THE ENTIRE TIME THE PEOPLE WERE THERE AND SAID YOU KNOW WHAT?

THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

YOU DON'T LOOK COMFORTABLE.

WHY DON'T YOU COME HOME WITH ME AND STAY FOR DINNER.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

DON'T GO BACK AND LIE ON THAT COT.

JUST STAY OVERNIGHT HERE.

SLEEP IN THE GUEST ROOM AND WE'LL WASH YOUR CLOTHES FOR YOU WHILE YOU FRESHEN UP IN OUR SHOWER.

EXTRAORDINARY.

SOMETHING YOU WOULD NOT EVEN THINK OF DOING ON A REGULAR BASIS.

>> AND IT WENT ON FOR WHAT?

IT WASN'T JUST AN OVERNIGHT TRIP.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS FIVE DAYS.

AND WHAT'S INCREDIBLE IS WHAT HAPPENED IN RESPONSE TO THAT KINDNESS.

THE MAYOR OF THE TOWN SAID THAT ON THE FIRST DAY THEY HAD 7,000 STRANGERS ON THE TARMAC.

BY THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK THEY HAD 7,000 FRIENDS.

AND BY END OF THE WEEK, THEY SAID GOODBYE TO 7,000 FAMILY MEMBERS.

IT'S REALLY INCREDIBLE.

BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT THE KINDNESS OF WHAT A THESE PEOPLE DID.

BUT IT WAS ALSO QUITE BRAVE IN THE DAYS AFTER 9/11, BRINGING PEOPLE, STRANGERS WHO THEY DIDN'T KNOW WERE ON THE PLANES INTO THEIR HOMES AND THE RESULT OF THAT IS THIS INCREDIBLE COMMUNITY THAT WAS BUILT.

IT WAS REALLY WONDERFUL.

>> AND JUST TO AGAIN EMPHASIZE, THIS WAS CANADIAN HOSPITALITY AND CANADIANS COMING TO THE RESCUE OF THEIR ALLY TO THE SOUTH AND NEIGHBOR TO THE SOUTH, THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHEN IT OPENED ON BROADWAY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU WAS THERE.

>> YEAH, HE WAS.

HE BROUGHT A NUMBER OF DELEGATES FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

AND IN FACT HE BROUGHT THE PRESIDENT'S DAUGHTER AS WELL.

>> IVANKA TRUMP.

>> IVANKA TRUMP.

IT'S INCREDIBLE TO HAVE THE PRIME MINISTER OF YOUR COUNTRY RESPOND TO A PIECE THAT YOU WROTE TO SAY THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE SAYING ABOUT CROSS-BORDER COLLABORATION AND WORKING TOGETHER IN PARTNERSHIP.

>> THE STORY IS THAT HE CRIED.

HE WAS VERY, VERY MOVED.

>> YES, YES.

THAT'S WHAT MADAM GREGOIRE TOLD US THAT HE WAS CRYING.

>> SO WHAT INSPIRE YOU'D TO TAKE THIS STORY?

HOW DID YOU EVEN FOCUS ON THIS STORY?

AS I SAY, WE KNEW IT WAS HAPPENING, BUT NONE OF US REALLY KNEW THE DEPTH OF WHAT YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO GO AND TURN INTO IT A MUSICAL?

>> WE WERE ACTUALLY LIVING IN NEW YORK ON 9/11.

MY COUSIN WAS IN THE TOWERS, BUT FORTUNATELY ESCAPED.

SO WE HAD NO INTEREST IN WRITING A 9/11 STORY.

WHAT WE WANTED TO DO WAS TELL A 9/12 STORY.

A FRIEND OF OURS HAD INTRODUCED US TO THE STORY, AND WE FOUND OUT ON THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY THERE WAS GOING TO BE A COMMEMORATION CEREMONY HAPPENING IN NEWFOUNDLAND.

AND ALL OF THESE COME FROM AWAYS THAT WERE STRANDED THERE, THAT'S WHAT THEY CALLED THEM, WERE RETURNING THERE TO REUNITE WITH THE FRIENDS THEY MADE TEN YEARS LATER.

SO WE GOT A GRANT FROM THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, AND WE GOT OUT THERE FOR ABOUT A MONTH.

AND THE PEOPLE WELCOMED US INTO THEIR HOMES.

WE SAW THE SAME GENEROSITY THAT THEY DID.

AND THEY TOLD US THOUSANDS OF STORIES.

WE COULDN'T WRITE THEM DOWN FAST ENOUGH.

AND EACH ONE WAS BETTER THAN THE LAST ONE.

SO WHAT IT BECAME WAS THIS 9/12 STORY.

NOT A STORY ABOUT A TRAGEDY, BUT A STORY ABOUT HOW A SMALL TOWN RESPONDED TO A TRAGEDY.

>> AND WHAT WAS THE PROCESS?

THE PEOPLE WHO YOU MET, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, THE COME FROM AWAYS, DID THEY WANT TO HAVE THIS STORY TOLD LIKE THIS?

WERE THEY SUSPICIOUS?

WERE THEY FORTHCOMING?

>> ONE THING THAT WAS REALLY CLEAR IS THE COME FROM AWAYS WANTED THE WORLD TO KNOW HOW GRATEFUL THEY WERE FOR HAVING BEEN TAKEN IN AND BEING SO WELL TAKEN CARE OF.

LIKE TAKING CARE OF SOME EVEN SAID BETTER THAN YOUR OWN FAMILY WOULD TAKE CARE OF YOU.

AND THEY WERE VERY EARNEST ABOUT THAT.

AND A LOT OF THE PRESS AT THE TIME WANTED FIVE-SECOND SOUND BITES.

AND WE WERE WILLING TO TALK FOR HOURS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WE WANTED.

SO WE JUST NEEDED ALL THE INFORMATION WE COULD HAVE TO SORT OF SOAK OURSELVES IN IT AND BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE COULD MAKE OUT OF IT.

>> AND WHAT WERE THE NATIONALITIES?

HOW DID THAT BREAK DOWN?

OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE A LOT OF AMERICANS STRANDED, NOT ABLE TO GO BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

BUT WERE THERE PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD ALSO TRYING TO VISIT AMERICA?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE ALSO REFUGEES.

REFUGEES FROM MOLDOVA.

THERE ARE REFUGEES FROM AFRICA.

ONE WOMAN WE SPOKE TO SAID SHE HAD 25 PEOPLE IN HER HOUSE FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF AFRICA.

AND EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO COMMUNICATE, SPINNING GLOBES AND POINTING WHERE THEY WERE.

ONE PEOPLE USED A BIBLE BECAUSE THE VERSES' NUMBERS ARE THE SAME.

AND REALLY SUCH INGENUITY AND SUCH COMPASSION.

PEOPLE I THINK DON'T UNDERSTAND.

YES, IT'S VERY NICE AND CANADIANS ARE VERY NICE.

BUT THIS WAS REALLY SMART AS WELL AS REALLY BRAVE.

>> SO YOU TWO ARE MARRIED.

>> YES.

>> YOU MET IN COLLEGE.

>> YES.

>> IN CANADA.

>> IN CANADA.

>> AND YOU WENT ABOUT YOUR LIVES.

YOU GOT MARRIED I THINK RIGHT AFTER 9/11, RIGHT?

>> YEP.

>> YOU DECIDED THAT SORT OF SPURRED YOU TO MAKE THAT COMMITMENT AND THAT DECISION.

>> YEAH.

>> WE DID.

>> SEIZE THE DAY.

>> WE WENT DOWN TO CITY HALL ABOUT A MONTH AFTERWARDS.

AND MY COUSIN, WHO WAS IN THE TOWERS, WAS OUR WITNESS AFTER A STRANGE DAY OF OUR WEDDING SET IN THE SHADOW OF THAT AFTERWARDS, SHE TOOK US ON THE PATH SHE ESCAPED ON.

SO- SO MUCH OF THE SHOW COMES FROM WHAT OUR EXPERIENCE WAS, WHICH WAS BOTH DOING THAT IN THE DAYS AFTERWARDS, BUT ALSO THE KINDNESS THAT WE SAW.

I THINK THE PEOPLE SAW AROUND THE WORLD THERE WAS A REAL OUTPOURING OF PEOPLE WANTING TO HELP AND FEELING HELPLESS AT THAT TIME.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS STORY REMINDS OF US.

>> AND ALSO, COINCIDENTALLY, THERE IS A MARRIED COUPLE IN THIS PLAY, IN THE PLAY WHO BECOME THE PROTAGONISTS.

THEY WEREN'T MARRIED AT THE TIME.

DESCRIBE THIS COUPLE WHO THEN, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE VERY CENTRAL TO THE PLAY.

>> WELL, NICK AND DIANE, DIANE IS FROM TEXAS.

NICK IS FROM PROBABLY NEARBY HERE.

I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, BUT MY GEOGRAPHY ISN'T SO GOOD FOR LONDON.

AND THEY WERE ON THE SAME PLANE.

AND SOMEHOW ENDED UP IN THE SAME -- EVEN THOUGH THEY GOT SEPARATED SEVERAL TIMES, THEY ENDED UP IN THE SAME SHELTER.

>> IN GANDER NOW.

>> JUST OUTSIDE OF GANDER, IN GAMBO.

AND THEY WERE BUNKED DOWN NEXT TO EACH OTHER, AND JUST STARTED TALKING.

AND FOUND OUT THEY WERE SPENDING MORE AND MORE TIME TOGETHER.

AND THEN THEY HAD TO LEAVE.

AFTERWARDS, THEY HAD TO LEAVE.

AND THEY BOTH REALIZED THEY DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE EACH OTHER.

AND THE REST I GUESS IS HISTORY.

>> AND THEY GOT MARRIED?

>> YES, THEY DID.

>> THEY HONEYMOONED IN GANDO.

THEY WENT BACK.

>> IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

YOU COULDN'T MAKE THAT STUFF UP.

>> NICK AND DIANE, THEY'VE BECOME WONDERFUL FRIENDS.

BUT I THINK FOR MANY YEARS AFTERWARDS, THEY DIDN'T TELL THEIR STORY.

I THINK THEY FELT GUILTY ABOUT SOMETHING --SOMETHING WONDERFUL HAPPENING FOR THEM IN RESPONSE TO.

THIS SO WHAT'S GREAT ABOUT DOING THIS SHOW IS IT'S BECOME A WAY FOR THEM TO CELEBRATE HOW THEY FELL IN LOVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND SO THEY GET TO TELL THEIR STORY ALL THE TIME.

AND IT'S BEEN WONDERFUL.

>> THAT IS ACTUALLY AN AMAZING REACTION TO FEEL SORT OF GUILT.

IT'S SURVIVOR'S GUILT, ISN'T IT?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> BUT THEY SEEM TO HAVE GOT OVER THAT NOW, AND THEY'RE REALLY INTO IT.

THEY WERE AT THE PERFORMANCE, CERTAINLY HERE IN LONDON ON ITS OPENING NIGHT.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

I MEAN WE HAVE SUCH A WONDERFUL SUPPORT NETWORK IN THE REAL PEOPLE WHO THE SHOW IS ABOUT.

THEY CHEER US ON FACEBOOK, AND WHEN THEY CAN, THEY COME OUT TO EVERY OPENING OR EVERY SPECIAL EVENT WE DO.

AND WE'RE SO --WE'RE SO GRATEFUL FOR THEIR SUPPORT.

>> NICK AND DIANE HAVE BEEN TO SEE THE SHOW AT LEAST OVER 60 TIMES.

CAPTAIN BEVERLY BASS, WHO IS REPRESENTED IN THE SHOW, SHE'S SEEN IT OVER 120 TIMES.

WHAT'S WONDERFUL, EACH TIME WE HAVE AN OPENING, IT BECOMES ANOTHER REUNION LIKE THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY WHEN WE WENT THERE, AND WE GET TO RECONNECT ALL OF THEM.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THE POWER OF THEATER AND THE POWER OF THE MUSICAL.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO MAKE "COME FROM AWAY" INTO A MUSICAL AND NOT JUST A PLAY?

>> YOU CAN'T TELL A STORY ABOUT NEWFOUNDLAND WITHOUT INCLUDING THE MUSIC.

THE MUSIC IS IN DNA OF THE PEOPLE OUT THERE.

?

?

AND EVERY HOUSE YOU GO TO, THEY PLAY ONE INSTRUMENT OR THREE.

AND BASICALLY HOW THEY GET THROUGH THE LONG WINTERS.

AND THE COLD, BASICALLY GETTING INTO EACH OTHER'S KITCHENS AND HAVING KITCHEN PARTIES.

AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN WE WERE OUT THERE.

IT WASN'T THAT COLD BECAUSE IT WAS SEPTEMBER AND IT WAS A GORGEOUS SEPTEMBER, BUT WE ENDED UP IN PEOPLE'S BACKYARDS WITH THEM PLAYING INSTRUMENTS AND TRYING TO TEACH US HOW TO PLAY AND VARIOUS OTHER THINGS.

>> YEAH, IT'S THIS INCREDIBLE AUTHENTIC MUSIC.

IT ACTUALLY COMES FROM ENGLAND AND IRELAND.

A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS CAME OVER THERE AND LANDED IN NEWFOUNDLAND.

AND THE MUSIC IS THIS LIFE-AFFIRMING MUSIC THAT GETS YOU UP ON YOUR FEET.

IT'S FIDDLES AND ACCORDIONS, HAND DRUMS.

?

?

>> AND IT'S THE WAY THEY RESPOND TO HARDSHIP.

THEY, YOU KNOW, IN THE DEAD OF WINTER, THEY WILL ALL STAY WARM BY TELLING STORIES AND SINGING SONGS.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED TO DO.

WE WANTED TO CREATE THIS KITCHEN PARTY BECAUSE IT'S HOW THEY RESPONDED TO THIS TRAGEDY, WITH WARMTH AND KINDNESS, AND WITH HUMOR.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SURPRISED US A LOT IS SO MANY OF THE STORIES THEY TOLD US WERE ACTUALLY FUNNY AND MADE US LAUGH BECAUSE IT'S HOW THEY TAKE CARE OF YOU.

THEY'LL BE TELLING A STORY WHERE THEY'LL SEE YOU ABOUT TO WELL UP, THIS HORRIBLE STORY.

AND THE MINUTE YOU START TO CRY, NO, NO, NO, HERE'S A JOKE.

>> YOU LIVE IN NEW YORK.

>> RIGHT NOW, YES.

>> WHEN YOU TELL YOUR NEIGHBORS THAT YOU'RE CANADIAN AND LIVING IN NEW YORK, WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>> THEY ASK US IF THEY CAN MOVE IN WITH US BACK IN CANADA, BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE A HOUSE THERE.

AND I'M ALWAYS REALLY QUICK TO SAY OUR SUCCESS COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THE THINGS THAT CANADA EMBRACES WHICH IS WE BOTH WENT TO PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS.

I WENT TO A PUBLIC ARTS HIGH SCHOOL.

WE BOTH GOT GRANTS TO GO TO UNIVERSITY AND LOANS TO GO THE UNIVERSITY.

THE PUBLIC HEALTH CARE SYSTEM KEPT US GOING THROUGH.

WE HAD SUBSIDIZED DAY CARE, CANADIAN GRANTS TO WRITE THE SHOW.

WE ARE -- I MEAN, THE POSTER CHILDREN FOR I GUESS WHAT YOU WOULD CALL MAYBE THE CANADIAN DREAM OF LOOK, IF WE ALL HELP EACH OTHER AND HELP PEOPLE WHEN THEY NEED HELP, LOOK WHAT CAN HAPPEN.

>> WELL, IT'S MARVELOUS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IRENE SANKOFF.

>> YES.

>> DAVID HEIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> OUR PLEASURE.

>> IT'S BEEN SUCH A DELIGHT TO SEE THAT INTERVIEW AGAIN AND THE HOSPITALITY.

IT IS NOT INSIDE DENTAL INCIDENTAL WHEN IT COMES FROM NEWFOUNDLAND.

IT WAS A MOMENT IN HISTORY.

I WAS IN CANADA FOR 9/11.

AND FOR THAT MOMENT, IT WAS A TRAGEDY AND YET MANY CANADIANS FELT IT SO VISCERALLY, RIGHT.

AND THEY FIERCELY WANTED TO DEFEND THEIR AMERICAN FRIENDS.

IT WAS AS IF A FAMILY MEMBER HAD BEEN HURT.

OF COURSE, CANADIANS WENT ON TO SERVE ALONGSIDE AMERICANS IN AFGHANISTAN.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF THEM.

158 WERE KILLED.

IT IS DISQUIETING TO SEE THIS BOND THAT IS STILL THERE AND STILL STRONG, BUT SO FRAYED NOW BY TRADE RELATIONS.

AND AGAIN, I'VE HEARD FROM CANADIANS AND AMERICANS SAY THAT 9/11 AND THE REACTION TO IT IS SOMETHING MANY OF THEM STILL TREASURE.

AND AS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT 9/11, OF COURSE AS WE JUST HEARD, IT WAS A TRAGEDY OF 9/11 AND THE SHOCK THAT SHOOK THE ENTIRE WORLD.

FOR MANY, INCLUDING SCOTT LARSON, LIFE DID NOT LOOK THE SAME, NOT EVER AGAIN AFTER THAT.

HE WAS ONLY 4 YEARS OLD WHEN HIS DAD, A NEW YORK CITY FIREFIGHTER, WAS TRADITIONCALLY KILLED IN THE COLLAPSE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS.

AND NOW LARSON IS FOLLOWING IN HIS LATE FATHER'S FOOTSTEPS.

LIKE MORE THAN 50 OTHERS WHO LOST THEIR FIREFIGHTING PARENTS IN THAT ATTACK, HE'S JOINED THE NEW YORK CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT.

IN FACT, HE'S BEEN ASSIGNED TO THE WOODSIDE FIREHOUSE, THE SAME ONE WHERE HIS DAD WORKED.

IT'S FILLED WITH REMINDERS OF HIS FATHER THAT SERVE AS DAILY ENCOURAGEMENTS FOR SCOTT TO TURN TO WHEN HE'S FEELING THAT GRIEF, HE FEELS THEN PRIDE.

LISTEN.

>> EVERY DAY I COME IN, I LOOK AT THE PLAQUE.

IT JUST MAKES ME WANT TO BE A BETTER PERSON.

NOT ONLY AT MY JOB, BUT IN LIFE IN GENERAL.

JUST TO HAVE AN UPBEAT ATTITUDE AND NOT REALLY LET ANYBODY TAKE YOU DOWN.

I'VE BEEN THROUGH A LOT ALREADY.

I'M NOT GOING TO LET SOMEONE BRING ME DOWN.

SO I GUESS IT'S JUST A GOOD --I RECOGNIZE IT EVERY DAY.

I COME INTO WORK AND I SEE HIS NAME.

I SEE HIS PICTURE IN THE KITCHEN AND HIS PICTURE IN THE TV ROOM.

IT MAKES ME ALWAYS THINK, JUST HAVE A BETTER ATTITUDE.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

COM/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.