(light music) - [Announcer] Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

- Tonight on "The Hinckley Report," as our state continues to manage a historic drought, lawmakers debate the best way to save the Great Salt Lake.

What conservation measures could have the biggest impact, and which policies will help Utah avoid catastrophe?

Join our panel of experts as they dive into the biggest issues surrounding the Great Salt Lake.

(upbeat dramatic music) Good evening, and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering this topic, we have Joel Ferry, executive director of the Department of Natural Resources, Kim Shelley, executive director of the Department of Environmental Quality, and Brian Steed, executive director of the Janet Quinney Lawson Institute for Land, Water, and Air at Utah State University.

We are so glad to have you here tonight on this special episode of "The Hinckley Report."

You are leading the policy for the state of Utah on a critical issue, and that is the Great Salt Lake.

We've been hearing about it from elected officials over the past several months.

At the last legislative session, it took center stage as some of the efforts in terms of legislation and funding.

But I wanna talk from beginning to end about the Great Salt Lake.

I wanna set a baseline first from each of you, starting with you, Joel.

Help us understand sort of what is happening with the Great Salt Lake.

- Well, Jason, we've seen over the last few decades we're in this historic drought.

We have research that shows that we're in the worst drought in over 1,200 years.

And the hydrology within the Great Salt Lake watershed is in really tough shape.

We're just not getting the moisture through rain, snow, and other areas that we may have, you know, historically have gotten.

And so that's led to this declining lake level.

Our population is rising.

Demands on this limited resource have been increasing.

And so just right now, today, we are at a record low lake level.

Last year, in October, we hit a low that hadn't been hit since 1964.

This year, we're now two feet lower, today, than we were last year.

So all-time historic record lows, and it's really causing a lot of issues and concerns.

- And, Kim, through your position here with Environmental Quality, talk about the impacts there.

- Yeah, absolutely.

So as our state continues to aridify or be, you know, kind of experience things related to rising temperatures and heat and things like that that are reducing the amount of water in our lake beds, we are experiencing more dust, you know, not only from the Great Salt Lake, but from from other areas such as, you know, farm fields and transportation.

As we have more population along the Wasatch Front, dust and particulate matter is a real concern for us.

And as well, the Great Salt Lake, when we think about the salinity and the economic impacts and the important food chain that provides for flyover birds, et cetera, it's such an important resource that is being impacted from many, many areas.

- It's so true, it's one that has impacts on everyone in the whole state of Utah, which is, I think, why we're talking about it.

Brian, I wanna show a video from a professor at the University of Utah that'll help set the stage a little bit, but particularly through your lens, through the institute that you're helping to run, let's talk about some of those key issues that are identified here, and then we'll get into some of these other impacts and solutions.

- My name is Dr. Kevin Perry.

I'm a professor of Atmospheric Sciences at the University of Utah, and I study air quality issues.

And for the last six years I've been studying dust coming off the Great Salt Lake.

The Great Salt Lake is one of the four largest water bodies in the Western Hemisphere.

And for the last, you know, 30 years, it's been shrinking at an alarming rate.

It's only been in the last 10 years when the lake is low enough to actually have dust storms start.

What I'm most concerned about is not the exposure of new parts of the lake bed, it's what's happening to the lake bed that's already exposed, because my research has shown that the longer the lake bed is exposed, there's a crust that protects it from wind erosion, and that crust tends to break down over time.

Only 9% of the lake bed is currently acting as a dust source, but that could go up to 24 or 25% in the next decade if the lake remains low.

What we need to do is we need to look at the other saline lakes, the other terminal basin lakes in the United States for what has been done for those.

And the poster child is Owens Lake in California.

Owens Dry Lake, which is only one 12th the size of the Great Salt Lake, turned out to be the largest dust source in North America.

And what they discovered, after $2 billion, is that the only way to effectively mitigate the dust is to put water back in the lake.

- So, Brian, some very interesting points.

So sometimes you talk about are these just, you know, problems that may occur?

But we have some examples, including Owens Lake in California that give us a very clear picture of why we should be caring about what happens.

- Oh, that's absolutely right, and Dr. Perry does a great job of illustrating kind of what would we expect if we don't do anything at this point.

If the lake continues to drop, we would expect to have something very similar to what we see in Owens Lake, to where you would have more lake bed exposed and more lake bed exposed over a longer period of time, which then lets that weathering occur and more dust.

And I think, honestly, the dust has been something that people are seeing and starting to take notice of.

And I think it's been a big motivator of why people, you know, can personalize why they care about the Great Salt Lake.

- Yeah, go ahead, Kim.

- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, the Department of Environmental Quality receives incident reports through our notification system, and we have seen the incidents of dust skyrocket, those reports.

And, unfortunately, there always isn't a response or an action that we can take to reduce it.

But people are noticing and reporting that to the department.

- And, Joel, so this dust that may come, it's the dust we're breathing and we talk about that, but it has impacts on water overall in the state of Utah?

- It does, when we look at that dust, you can have that effect of it layering on our snow, which makes our snow pack melt a little bit quicker.

And it has impacts on crops, it has impacts across the board.

And so, you know, as Dr. Perry said, the way we mitigate that dust is we cover it with water.

And that's a big challenge because a lot of those areas that are the main sources of dust are, you know, five to 10 feet above the current elevation of that water.

So the dust issue is something that's going to take some time for us to mitigate and overcome.

- Kim, you started talking about this a little bit.

So their impacts, those are big ones.

Also, you sort of indicated it has a huge impact even on our wildlife, and birds in particular.

- That's right, so as we are seeing the lake level shrink, the salt concentration is becoming more of an issue and impacting the brine shrimp population and brine flies, which of course are a significant piece of the food chain.

And so we are starting to see what some people are calling the collapse of the ecosystem.

I don't think we're we're to that tipping point yet.

I still think there's many things we can do now, but it is coming and I'm grateful for the awareness, the engagement of people so we can reverse those impacts.

- Brian, oh, go ahead.

- And if I can add on to that, I mean, we have two species that really are very reliant on the Great Salt Lake that I think everyone should be concerned about even if they don't know that they exist.

One is the eared grebe.

The eared grebe stops over in the Great Salt Lake and molts, meaning it can't fly away, and then depends on those brine shrimp and brine flies as a food source while it grows its feathers back.

As a result of that, if we don't get this right and those brine shrimp die off with increased salinity, we will have really catastrophic events for those populations.

And that may bring regulatory actions that I think all of us are worried about from the Endangered Species Act or others.

- Wow.

Okay.

- Well I would, just kind of one last little point on that, we've seen a lot of people say, "Well, if Great Salt Lake dries and those birds can't come here, they'll go somewhere else."

We are the somewhere else.

So as other lakes throughout the west have dried up, we've seen those populations of, say that eared grebe, go from, normally we'd have about 75% of the world's population of eared grebe come to Great Salt Lake, this last year was over 90%.

Because there's not a resource to support them in these other lakes, they've come here.

We're the last resort.

So it's a real concern.

- Brian, on top of all of this, the Great Salt Lake is also a major economic driver for the state of Utah.

We talked about the flies that Kim was just talking about.

Well, give us a clearer view of all those ways and the kind of things that come out of the Great Salt Lake.

- Absolutely, the Great Salt Lake touches our lives in ways that most people don't realize.

If you've touched a can of soda, it probably has had magnesium that's come out of Great Salt Lake added to that aluminum to harden that aluminum.

If you've had fruits or nuts grown in California, probably those fruits or nuts have probably benefited from sulfate of potash that's gathered from the Great Salt Lake.

Brine shrimp are increasingly important as a food source for other aquaculture.

And so if you've had shrimp or other fish that have been aquaculture grown, probably they have depended to some degree on Great Salt Lake brine shrimp.

All of those things add up to being over $1 billion dollars of economic impact.

If it goes away, I think it hurts all of us.

- From your perspective, go ahead.

- Yeah, the economic impact can't be understated.

We just came up with some updated numbers.

you know, with inflation and other things, we're looking at about a 1.7 billion impact to Utah's economy.

7,700 jobs are aligned upon that.

And those are at risk.

Those are threatened by those lake levels.

We're seeing some of the intake, these are mineral extraction companies, some of the intake canals are now high and dry 'cause those levels of drops so far.

And so, you know, we have to factor in that in the equation as well.

But we have to remember, this is a limited resource.

It's a zero-sum game that we can't say, "Okay, mineral extraction, you guys stop doing what you're doing," or, "Cities, stop taking water, agriculture, stop taking water."

You know, we have to look at a balance, 'cause the environment needs it, we need it as people.

So what is that right balance?

- To get to this issue, we have to talk about the causes a little bit as to why it is so low.

I wanna start with a statement from Brad Wilson, the Speaker of the House because, well, I guess the Great Salt Lake is one of his constituents.

We're all impacted by it and it's in his area, so he's taken great interest.

I wanna start with his statement about the Great Salt Lake, and then we'll get into some of the other causes.

- Over the next year, i think you'll see the legislature build on the work that we did last year, which was to make significant and historic investments in conservation.

We moved mountains literally last year in terms of investment, mountains of investment to make a difference in terms of water and our needs in the future.

But there's a lot more to be done.

Up until now, until recently when we passed some legislation this last session, the Great Salt Lake has never actually had its own water.

It's just been the recipient of whatever water is left in the system.

But we're actually changing that and we're allowing the Great Salt Lake, and in fact investing in making sure the Great Salt Lake owns some of its own water so that it's got a seat at the table.

- So, again, this is such an interesting point that he's making right there.

I mean, so this is a terminal lake and water's coming from somewhere else, but the bottom line is it needs water.

So talk about that, about how we give the Great Salt Lake a seat at the table.

I think that was his words.

- Well, that's a very interesting concept and one that people have talked about in the past.

But I'm grateful that the speaker is elevating it and amplifying that message because it is so important to have the Great Salt Lake, who has given so much to the state, to have us seat at the table and be considered in some of the policy decisions that are happening.

You know, one thing is there are many stakeholders in this.

So, of course, we have folks that are focused on the environmental side, you know, water use, agriculture, et cetera, that really feels strongly about their positions.

And I think one thing that the state can do is bring everyone together and have solutions that will work for everyone.

But it does start with conservation.

It does start with, last general session, that were significant bills that were passed that really will move the needle over time.

This is a problem that won't be solved overnight.

And that's one thing that I do hope the public understands is that it will take time for us to implement these solutions, but we're on the right track and we have the momentum to do so.

- Brian, some of this, just water from other sources, our snow pack, et cetera.

How is that impacting the water levels in the Great Salt Lake?

- So as we have historically developed, water obviously was deemed really important and deemed to be one of those key resources that we really needed to maximize.

Most of the water that we know on the Wasatch Front has been put to use, put to beneficial use.

And because of that, really, as the speaker was mentioning, what the Great Salt Lake got in return was just the tail end of whatever wasn't used.

And I think there was a lot of people that viewed, historically, water that reached the Great Salt Lake was wasted.

I think that we've started to change our thinking on that simply because we're seeing the consequences of that thought process.

And so, really, if you look at how that water is used, a lot goes to agriculture, a lot goes to municipal and industrial uses, a lot goes to, currently, on storage or reservoirs, you have evaporative loss off those reservoirs.

And so there's really these series of things that we need, but we also need to take into consideration that need is the Great Salt Lake.

- I wanted to break down a couple of those points, but can you elaborate a bit on this evaporation factor?

'Cause it's a big one that goes into the lake level.

- No, absolutely right.

And so two things, one, anytime you store water and you put it under the sun, you're gonna see that water dry to a degree.

That's the evaporative loss that we're talking about.

And we see that every time we have these big lakes, which we need.

Those big reservoirs then also cause some of that evaporative loss.

We see that off the Bear Lake and we see that off of Utah Lake, both of which are kind of key headwaters of the Great Salt Lake.

We see it on the Great Salt Lake as well.

So that's important.

Add to what we've seen recently in really the last 50 years since, really, the mid 1970s, we've seen an increase in temperatures.

And those increase in major temperatures means that we have more evaporative loss than we have seen historically.

That means that the ground around the lake, it becomes more dry also, we see more evaporative loss off that.

And so when we get precipitation, more absorbs into the ground and we get more evaporative loss off the lake.

And that's something that I think that all of us need to pay attention to.

- Joel, as brought up here a moment ago, agriculture is a big player in this.

Talk about that.

I know that a lot of people say this is a key place to look when we're talking about water conservation.

Put that in context for us so we understand it.

- Yeah, so agriculture is a key player.

When the saints first came to the valley here, Brigham Young, one of his first actions was to go and dam off City Creek and divert the water so they could irrigate.

So from the, you know, modern age, we have taken water and diverted it to grow crops, to grow food and to do those types of things.

And so, even today, agriculture uses a majority of the water in the state of Utah, and in particular, in the Great Salt Lake Watershed.

It's about somewhere between 50 and 65% of that water that's diverted is used for agriculture.

And agriculture has those historic water rights.

I mean, we have a prior appropriation system in the state of Utah, and so they have the right to use that water.

And they're using it with the tools they have to the highest and best use.

One thing I'm really encouraged with agriculture is, a couple of sessions ago, we created a program called the Agriculture Water Optimization Fund.

And it was a state investment in private agriculture to help them be more efficient with their water.

And the demand for that has just been off the charts.

Last year, with the ARPA funding, we put $70 million into that fund, and applications just skyrocketed, more than we ever expected.

And so our agriculture partners are willing to participate.

They want to participate and they wanna do their part.

Agriculture is a key and critical component of our rural communities and life on the Wasatch Front.

I mean, to just say, "Hey, agriculture, you're gonna dry up, you're gonna go away," we can't have that, that's not the answer.

But to say, "Agriculture, can we make investments with you?

Can we be partners with you to be more efficient to optimize your water?"

And then taking those types of efforts really makes a difference.

- So, Kim, historically, we had some of these water policies.

You look at these and there's like this phrase, many of you has heard this, use it or lose it approach to people who have these prior water rights that they've acquired.

Talk about how we're looking kind of as policy makers like you are, but our elected officials when it comes to items like that.

- Yeah, you know, I'm grateful that people are taking a different look at things that we've done historically.

You know, as we continue to grow and experience, you know, as Brian mentioned, increasing temperatures, climate change, we have to think about problem solving differently.

And, you know, the use it or lose concept is a little dated and we're working as an executive branch to change water rights holders' ideas about that and what it means to shepherd water down and what the environmental benefits are for that.

Again, I'm not the state engineer, and this is a very complex issue, water rights in Utah in the West, but I'm grateful for the people taking the second look and the refreshed look on it.

But maybe Joel or Brian would have something to add.

- And I'll point to two real-world examples of what Kim's talking about.

During the last couple of legislative sessions, we've made great strides forward in the state in terms of how we view those water rights and whether it is truly user to lose it.

One of those bills allowed for what they called split-seizing leasing.

And what what that is is, if you're a grower of crops, you're able to say, "I'm not gonna take my fourth or fifth or my third or fourth cutting of alfalfa, and instead use that water and maybe deliver it to a different use."

And then adding on to that, last year, Representative Ferry, well, then Representative Ferry, had an instream flow bill which allowed for a dedicated flow in those streams to get to an area of concern, like the Great Salt Lake or other bodies of water.

And, really, those two combined have really kind of changed the conversation on how we can utilize those scarce resources.

- Talk about that bill too, and also for a minute about metering, about how we're measuring the impacts of these.

- So, first on that legislation, House Bill 33 was an instream flow bill, but what we did in that, that's the legislation that created the ability for Great Salt Lake to hold a water right, for the Division of Forestry, Fire and State Lands to actually acquire water and say it's dedicated to the lake.

But as as a producer, as an agriculture, or someone that owned water rights, I could also lease water and receive a beneficial use just for leaving it in the stream.

So we talk about the use or lose it a lot, and specifically, it's called forfeiture.

And it's not used heavily, but it's more of a mentality that exists within the community, saying, "If I don't use my water, I'm going to lose it."

It's very rarely enforced, but you could create a culture.

And so part of all of this is education, helping people that own water rights, in particular, agriculture producers, to know what is available to them and what does the law really say and help change that culture.

You know, one of the things that we're doing this year within the Department of Natural Resources as well, we're updating and implementing an updated education campaign.

They'll reach out from grade school to people visiting the lake, out to Antelope Island, whatever it may be, but making a significant investment, and you'll see that, I think you'll see that over the next few months, to try to update the Slow the Flow campaign and other things just to educate the public of the Great Salt Lake.

And, anyway, but going back to this legislation, that bill plus so many others gave us this toolbox.

We have really sharp tools now.

We have the ability to do what we need to do to move water to the lake, to help agriculture, to help our cities.

We have turf buyback programs.

I mean, we have all these programs across the board.

Now, as the speaker alluded to, now it's about funding, it's getting funding to these programs so that they can work.

And, well, sorry, let me just say, and in the governor's budget, you'll see historic investment, even more than last year, over a half a billion, $526 million towards water conservation efforts.

- Yeah, definitely.

I was gonna build on that and also mention the federal money that's come through that has really allowed us to jumpstart a lot of this as well.

So it's an exciting time to be part of this in the state.

- Before we leave this part of the discussion, Brian, one thing we haven't talked about is Utah is also an incredibly fast growing state.

On top of all these things we just talked about, we also have larger demands.

- That's absolutely right, and different kind of demands to where, oftentimes, the state engineer will say, "Listen," to a farmer, "you have a lower priority water right.

And so, therefore, if you don't have water, if there's no water in the river this year, you're not going to get that water."

That's much harder to do when you have a city.

it's what we call hardened demand.

And that hardened demand, then you're turning off people's faucets.

And so we really have to, when we're growing, be a lot more conscientious about the policies we adopt in our city scapes to make sure that we're not growing in a way that we're misusing our water.

And I think that all of us have become accustomed to kind of these broad swaths of Kentucky bluegrass around a lot of our areas.

We're probably gonna see less than that in the future.

And I think that we're probably gonna have to adapt the way we grow in order to really live within the means of the water that we have.

- Okay, I want to end in the last couple of minutes talking about what we can do going forward and why it's still time.

And I want to go back to Professor Perry, Dr. Perry for one moment with some comments he's made about what we can do going forward.

And then I wanna talk about some legislation that's coming.

- I've talked to many, many people, and three years ago, very few people knew about the risks associated with the shrinking Great Salt Lake.

And now, through outreach and public education, many people are becoming aware of that.

And that awareness has spurned an effort and urgency on the state level.

So the collective will of the people has made a difference.

But, that being said, every drop of water counts.

Every drop that we can conserve is another drop that can make it to the Great Salt Lake.

People ask me, you know, "What's the worst case scenario associated with the dust?"

The dust itself is a short-term hazard.

When the dust plumes come off the lake, you can shelter in your home.

You can put on an N95 mask and you can prevent your exposure to the dust fairly readily.

So we don't have to leave, but what it does do is it puts pressures on our already challenged air quality so that, instead of just having wintertime and summertime air quality problems, we might have year-round air quality problems because the dust is most likely to occur in the spring and the fall.

One thing that many Utahns haven't had the opportunity to do is to go out and visit the Great Salt Lake.

It's an absolutely crown jewel in the Western U.S.

There's incredible hiking, there's incredible birds, wildlife, solitude, photography.

It's just an amazing place, and I really encourage everyone to go out to visit this ecosystem to learn what we're in danger of losing.

- Okay, go ahead, Kim.

- Great, yeah, well, I absolutely agree with Dr. Perry.

Is a magical place, and I'm grateful for the attention that it's received recently.

And he's absolutely spot-on that conservation is our first step.

We are not too late in acting on the air quality and the ecological front.

So, absolutely, conservation should be our priority.

- In our last two minutes, for people watching, what can we do?

You're helping to set policy for the state of Utah.

Joel, I'll start with you.

What can we do, our own homes, our families to help?

- So, individually, we can all make a difference.

You know, look at swapping out some of your turf.

We have turf buyback programs.

Make sure that your legislators understand how important this is to you.

I look at the investments that we're going to make going forward.

We've got the secondary meter program, $250 million, ag turf, or excuse me, ag optimization, and some other programs that are all going to make a difference, but they're gonna take some time.

So this is something that we're in together, and when we work together, we can get through this.

There's no silver bullet, you know, immediately.

What we're doing as well is, you know, looking at increasing cloud seeding and doing some other things to augment our water here.

But all of these things are going to make a difference.

- Brian?

- I would echo what Joel says.

I think all of those things matter.

I think being more attentive to how much water we use, whether you're an agriculture producer or whether you're a municipal and industrial user.

Either way, knowing how much water you use and trying to maximize that water in a way that doesn't take or destroy those resources that we rely on, like the Great Salt Lake, is gonna be key.

So measurement, and then that adoption of technology to make sure that we really maximize the water resources.

- Okay, Kim, the last 30 seconds are yours, help us know what we can do.

- Yeah, absolutely.

Conservation is key, the end.

If people are concerned about air quality, the Department of Environmental Quality does maintain data, and we have not seen an increase in particulate matter in our monitors along the Wasatch Front, which is good news.

But if folks are concerned, they can go to our website and get information to protect themselves.

- Very good, we will.

It's something we all should pay attention to.

You've made a very great case for the Great Salt Lake today, thank you.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on pbsutah.org/hinckleyreport, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

(upbeat dramatic music)