- They targeted me, they came after me.

And then when I left the facility, they continued to come after me and have me arrested anyway.

I'm afraid too, but I pray that fear doesn't turn me into a coward.

You have to do things, you gotta get it done.

Like nobody wants to debate with you about your politics in the bread line, right?

You have to make sure they can get bread, and that's really what my responsibility is.

The problem with Democrats are not Republicans.

The problem with Democrats are Democrats.

(light music) - Coming up on "Laura Flanders & Friends."

The place where the people who say it can't be done take a back seat to the people who are doing it.

Welcome.

(upbeat music) I knew today's guest was no ordinary politician when I saw him perform a soaring poetic tribute to the incomparable poet Sonia Sanchez at the Schomburg Center in New York City on the occasion of her 90th birthday.

At the time, he was not only mayor of New Jersey's largest, busiest and most challenging city, but he was also running for governor.

And we were all in the immediate run-up to one of the nation's most consequential presidential elections.

Clearly, Ras Baraka was not only a good poet and time manager, but also a standup guy, rooted in the cultural legacy of the Black arts movement and his parents, poets Amiri and Amina Baraka, as well as in the principle's driving Sanchez and his own history as a public school teacher, namely a commitment to genuine radical change.

Some in our audience may have first heard of Baraka only after his arrest at an immigration detention center this May, and heard his outspoken opposition to the Republican's immigration agenda and assertion of executive power.

What they may not know then is that as mayor of the city of Newark, Ras Baraka has supported many of the sorts of programs that we cover pretty regularly on this program.

From universal basic income to publicly informed policing and community broadband.

And he's seen success, driving down crime and homelessness, and inspiring other city leaders everywhere.

He is currently one of the leading candidates in a very crowded field of Democrats competing in New Jersey's gubernatorial primary race.

If elected, he would be the first Black governor in New Jersey If he's not elected, he is still an extraordinary politician.

One to watch, as he insists on advancing forward-thinking policy even in these tough times.

Therefore, it is my great pleasure to welcome the mayor of the city of Newark, Ras Baraka, to "Laura Flanders & Friends."

Ras, welcome so much, Mayor Baraka.

How would you prefer that I refer to you?

- I'm okay, whatever you like to do today on the show, I'm okay.

(Laura laughing) Yeah.

- Well, I appreciate that.

I guess let's start with where some people are with the story, which is with that confrontation at that Delaney Hall facility there in Newark.

What's the status of the facility?

Who's in there?

What condition are they in and what was your concern about the place?

- It's a private prison.

The government has a contract to house some of their detainees in there.

So they don't own the property, they don't have a lease on the property.

We really wanted them to just allow our inspectors to inspect the property, as we do with everything, and to apply for a certificate of occupancy.

They don't have one.

They're arguing they had one 20 years ago.

Well, it's not sufficient based on our local law.

And so we were in court, and the courts decide disputes.

That's what happens in America, supposedly.

But they decided to put detainees in the property or people in the property, whether they're detainees.

or workers, or anybody, who shouldn't be in the property without a certificate of occupancy.

So we took umbridge with that, and we were in court.

And we went up there to make them do what they're supposed to do.

Our Congress people decided to go there.

I came there for a press event and it escalated and turned into them arresting me.

Thank God that those charges have been dismissed.

But we still have charges on the Congresswoman LaMonica McIver that we're also trying to get dismissed right now as we speak.

- How do you see your arrest and the indictment of your colleague, Representative LaMonica McIver, within the kind of broader context of what's happening in this country at this time?

- Yeah, well, we're moving very fast towards authoritarianism, if we haven't arrived there already.

I mean, you're talking about people who are arresting mayors, judges, Congress people, anybody who they think is gonna defy them, who thinks differently to them.

Deporting people with green cards and visas simply because they have different ideologies than they do, running up on people on the street who are in fact citizens, who are violating people's due process here in this country.

These folks are putting in, who passed congressional legislation in the House with a caveat that says that they don't have to listen to federal courts, that they can stop federal courts from doing, the ability to do the things that they're doing, those executive orders or whatever else they think that they should do that's outside of the Constitution of this country.

And I think this is dangerous.

It's very, very, very dangerous.

And we should be very concerned about this.

- Do you think you were targeted personally?

'Cause the video sure looks that way.

- Absolutely, I think I was targeted.

I mean, I was in the facility for over an hour and a half, just standing there, and they came and targeted me.

They targeted me because I'm the mayor of the city.

They targeted me because I'm up there trying to hold GEO accountable to city laws, - GEO, the for-profit company that runs the place.

They got the contract.

- That's right.

So yeah, they targeted me.

They came after me.

And then when I left the facility, they continued to come after me and have me arrested anyway.

- I saw you quoted somewhere as saying, giving up on the sanctuary city status of Newark would be like giving up on democracy.

How so?

- Absolutely.

I mean, immigration is a key component to this country.

Obviously we have advertised to the rest of the world that we've discovered the best thing since sliced bread, and that we should be the envy of the entire world because we have this democracy and our Constitution defends that.

And so why don't you think people around the world are gonna come here and try it on and see how it fits, right?

This idea that people are protected in their persons, their paper and their property, they have the right to practice any religion they want, they have the right to assemble, they have the right of their own ideology, and to face their accusers in court and contend their incarceration or arrest, to represent themselves in court.

All these things are noble ideas that separate us from countries around the world.

To renege on that promise makes us a different place than what we taught kids that we were in the fifth grade.

- Mm, now, you sound like you might represent the United States slightly differently than the story that you just told, this sliced bread discovery, best ever in the world.

How would you tell the story of where we are?

And how would you describe the test that so many of us feel like we're under right now?

- Yeah, I mean, like I said, America's always been a work in progress.

The struggle itself is what makes America great, not hiding it.

The idea that my grandfather fled Jim Crow and had to shine shoes in Newark, until he became a postal worker, 'cause that was the only job he was offered.

And his son became a renowned poet, his grandson, the mayor of the state's largest city and a number-one contender for governor, is a strictly American story.

And we should be proud of that story and not try to hide it under a bushel basket.

The reality is that this country has never been perfect, and the people in it, the only thing that's been perfect is our ability to make it better, generation after generation.

That's what it is.

And I think what's happening now is people are trying to halt that progress, are trying to turn us back on our advancements and trying to make us ashamed of the fact that we've struggled in the first place, or that our diversity is the thing that makes our country wrong as opposed to right.

- You as the mayor of the city of Newark have advanced some very forward-thinking policies, policies of the sort that we've covered on this program in the past.

Now you, like so many Democratic-run cities, are facing serious onslaught from Republican policy coming down from Washington, cutbacks and health cuts and you name it.

First, I'd love you just to describe Newark, for people that don't know it, a fabulous city, but people across the country aren't aware of how much is happening there.

- Newark is the state's largest city.

It is working-class town, average income, about $37,000.

Very diverse community.

It's always been diverse when the immigrants here were Irish and Jewish and Italian.

Now the immigrant community is Portuguese, Brazilian, African, Caribbean, Latin American.

I mean, so it's an immigrant community.

It's always been an immigrant community, and that's been the strength of this city.

It's a port town, an industrial town.

And so our struggles here have always been the way they are.

We have done tremendous things in this town, changing the skyline, billions of dollars' worth of development, forcing affordable housing in the city.

Putting 20% affordability in everything that is put up in this town, changed 23,000 lead service lines without any cost to the taxpayers, reduced violent crime by 61% in this city, diminished street homelessness to about, to 57% street homelessness diminished two years ago in this town.

Did guaranteed income, gave people $600 a month, or about $6,000 a year or more.

We did that for two years for a select group of people in our community.

Hundreds of families benefited from this as a part of the larger Mayors for Guaranteed Income around the country, and are trying to push that nationally around the country, and here statewide as well when we can, right?

So we've expanded broadband to families that don't have it.

We put it in every park, public park in the city, every recreational center in the city, and we have given it to folks in our community for as low as $20.

- So how do you deal with this moment, where it feels like so much that you've gained is at risk?

- It is at risk.

All of the programs, from CDBG dollars, community development block grant dollars, housing dollars, Medicaid opportunities, SNAP for people to feed their children who are having difficult times.

Folks will be homeless without vouchers.

So it'll have a devastating impact on Newark and many communities like that.

And so that's why we need the states in this country to step up.

We need people to push back against what's happening through the judicial system, but we also need to be creative about the things we do in the state.

This is not a moment to lay down, it's not a moment to play safe.

And the reality is when people are afraid, they wind up doing the safe thing instead of the right thing.

And so what we need to be doing now is figuring out how we have a Medicaid system that's divorced or separated from what the federal government is doing.

- I gotta ask you about President Trump's voucher plan for schools.

He would like to see a federal and national school voucher plan.

And to some people, school vouchers still seem like a good idea.

Vouchers to attend charter schools and privately run schools.

This one is a kind of buy-your-way-in kind of program, I think, that could also provide a tax benefit for people that invest stock options, and so on.

As a former public school teacher, what do you say?

- Well, it's proven to be a failed strategy.

All over the country, vouchers have helped people who already had their kids in private school in the first place.

I mean, overwhelmingly in states that are using vouchers, the people who benefited the most are folks that are well off, that are wealthy.

Working-class families and poor families in this country do not benefit from vouchers.

And maybe that's their intention, right?

I don't know what their intentions are, or their objective is.

The irony is that public education in America has always worked, right?

If you were in a crowded room and you asked people how many people went to public school, majority of people would raise their hands.

So it's not the public schools that's the problem.

It's the issues that are related to the social determinants of health, poverty and race and racism and all of these things that make it difficult in these environments to have equitable kinds of public education.

We should be investing more in public education, not moving away from it.

What's happening doesn't make sense.

Segregation is unaffordable, it is proven to be unaffordable in this state, right?

New Jersey has one of the best educational systems in the country, by the way, but also the sixth most segregated in the country by race and class.

And so the inequity you see in New Jersey is not because of public schools, it's because of segregation in our state, and we need to fix it.

- So is that why you wanna run for governor, why you are running for governor, and rather than staying in that important job as mayor of the city of Newark?

- Yeah, I think being a mayor is incredibly important, but I think the governor, especially at this time, is even more crucial and critical in this moral moment that we're in right now.

We need louder voices, bigger resources, a larger stage, a greater opportunity to help more people than we can, to bring communities together, to build a broad-based coalition, and yes, to tackle inequity.

And I think in New Jersey, we can prove if we tackle this inequity that how our public school system can thrive and flourish and be an example for what the rest of the country should be doing.

- You have a lot of competitors there in that primary, and some people will be seeing this program nationally after the elections.

So I'm sure you wanna wish them all well, but how do you distinguish yourself from the others?

- I think it's pretty clear, like when you hear us talk at the debates, I mean, what I'm trying to do is a lot bigger, a lot more imaginative, a lot more creative.

People say it's too progressive.

I think that making rich pay they fair share is not too progressive.

I think that creating statewide rent control and building affordable housing until we get a number we need is not too progressive, or talking about a public option that exists in many countries around the world who have full public healthcare is not too radical or too progressive.

I think these are issues that people are waiting for us to talk about.

Courage in leadership now in this moment is probably more important than anything else.

As Maya Angelou said, "Courage is the most important value.

It gets you the opportunity to practice all the other ones."

- One of the things that I've heard a lot of people say is, "Look, Donald Trump got more votes in his third run for president in New Jersey than he did in his first two."

The states moved to the Right, you can see the statistics now.

That's all as of the last presidential race.

We don't know where it is right now.

What's your sense?

- Well, I'll tell you this, the problem with Democrats are not Republicans.

The problem with Democrats are Democrats.

(Laura laughing) We're throwing people off the voting roles in New Jersey, like in Mississippi or Georgia, because they didn't vote in the last couple elections, as opposed to warning them and telling them, "You need to vote."

You know, 500,000 Democrats stayed home in the Kamala Harris race, 68%, even in the Black community, 68% of the Black vote came out in Joe Biden's race.

Only 60% of eligible voters in the Black community came out for Kamala Harris.

When Murphy ran, he won in his last election with less percentage points than Kamala Harris.

He won with only three percentage points.

So about a million Democrats stayed home.

So the first thing we should be going after are the people who made a decision not to come out to vote.

- There are people that have said you're the Black Bernie Sanders.

- Aw.

- Now, I think we can have both you and Bernie Sanders without having to compare the two of you.

But he has made the point about the increase in independence these days, the number of folks who are registering independent.

It sounds like you have some suspicions of how to get those back into the Democratic Party fold.

And I would say, I think the primary, the gubernatorial primary there in New Jersey, has also been in some ways a test of the party, its commitment to the old guard versus the new, the changing in the ballots that used to benefit the party, county party-endorsed candidates, and so forth.

Is there real change in the works in the party there in New Jersey?

- Well, I can see it, I just see all the political infrastructure, period.

I think the changing the party line, the infrastructure there, has given people a lot more steam, making people feel like they can run and win.

Look, if this race was four years ago, it wouldn't be six people We would've had two people in the race, possibly even one.

After the bosses made a deal and sat down and divvied up the spoils, it would've been two people in the race, possibly one.

And we would've been all galvanizing behind this one individual to run against the Republican Party.

But because there are six people in the race, it's proof that we're in a different time in New Jersey for sure.

- I need to ask you what I've heard from some people, which is, was your positioning there at the Delaney Hall facility grandstanding, to stand out amongst that pack there running for governor?

- I think that's ridiculous, but I wish one of them would've done it, 'cause it's really humiliating.

But (laughing) at the end of the day, I was there that morning, I've been there, what people are forgetting to understand is I've been there, I was there every single morning before that arrest at 7:00 a.m. with UCC code enforcement people, fire inspectors, trying to gain entry, with the ICE agents right there.

If I wanted to grandstand, and the reporters were right next to me, I could've grandstand at that time and got arrested at that time.

But that was not my goal.

I went down there to a press conference at 1:30 with the Congress people and the folks from Homeland Security are the ones that escalated that, not us.

And if you can see the video, I've walked right into place because they asked me to come in there.

And then began to try to accost me and do all these other kind of things and escalated that.

And it was completely avoidable, right, and totally unnecessary.

- I heard you after that event saying on national television, I think it was MSNBC, basically calling on other members of the national congressional and senatorial delegations, but certainly the ones from New Jersey, to show up and do what you all were doing.

Have they?

- Well, I mean, we've gotten a lot of calls, a lot of well wishes, a lot of people have said a few things, but I don't think there's any collective action.

And that's what's missing.

I tell you what, as I go up and down the state of New Jersey, people are very afraid, and they're saying that we need leadership.

And I think there's a lot of people that are exhibiting leadership.

I don't think people feel it because there's no collective thing happening.

There's no collaboration going on, nobody's planning anything.

It's all spontaneous and individualized, and there's no real strategy on how we push back against these people nationally.

And I think that's what's missing.

- How can there not be a strategy still?

- That's a good question, but I certainly don't feel one and haven't heard about one.

- No, I think you're totally right.

I mean, as we draw to a close, I wanna go back into your history.

Part of what gives you the courage, I think, that you do is your legacy and your rootedness in a tradition that includes members of your family.

At a time when this administration seems so determined to erase exactly that history, I'm talking Black history, I'm talking movement history, I'm talking liberation history, and not just history, but analysis, storytelling, inspiration.

Where do you draw your strength from and what's your message to folks perhaps out there who are feeling a little rootless?

- Well, I tell people, like, "I'm afraid too," but I pray that fear doesn't turn me into a coward.

And the reality is, we can't be the only generation that does not sacrifice, our position, our proximity to influence, our privilege, our power, for the generations that come after us.

Many people sat in jails, lost their lives in order for us to enjoy the kind of democracy we have today, that is being taken away from us, little by little by little.

Finally, my mother would say to me that, "Your father was a thinker, a philosopher, a writer, a poet.

When he went to the supermarket, nobody asked him for a job."

And she's saying to me that, "You have to do things, you gotta get it done.

Like nobody wants to debate with you about your politics in the bread line, right?

You have to make sure they can get bread."

And that's really what my responsibility is, is to make sure we're doing the things that we say we're gonna do.

And I think that's the Democrat's problem.

We have to make the big issues relate to the small issues, and the small issues relate to the big issues.

We can't run ahead of people, we have to run with them.

- For those who are going to be seeing this episode or hearing it after June 10th, the primary, the gubernatorial primary, what do you say to them?

If you won, how will your campaign be different?

And if you didn't win, I guess my question would be, would you run again?

- I'm clearly cognizant of our campaign and the things that we're asking for and how different it is.

And I think the power in our demands is, as Paul Robeson would say, is, "What we're asking for is right."

And by any stretch that we fall short of what's going on, yeah, we don't walk away.

We're going to stay at it and stay focused, and make sure we push this state into a place that it needs to be.

We need an example out here.

I think California used to be an example, and I think that people are backing away from the things that they were pushing for, for a while.

But we need an example here in this country, of democracy that's working for working families across this country.

- And that brings me to our closing question, I ask all of our guests, what do they think is the story that the future will tell of this moment.

Looking forward, I don't know, 50 years, 100 years, what's the story that the future will tell of us today?

- It's a dangerous, dangerous moment, right?

It's gonna tell the same story that it told during Jim Crow, during the Civil War, during the fight for women's rights, for the fight around Roe v. Wade, LGBTQ rights or the Haymarket massacre.

It's going to tell a story.

The question really is, which side of the story are you gonna be on, right?

That's really the question.

And you know, so this is a turning point.

I mean, what happens now affects generations to come.

Just like dismantling Jim Crow, it affected generations to come.

This is going to affect generations.

An eight-hour-day affected generations to come.

This is gonna do that.

And so the question you should ask yourself when they're telling this story, where are you gonna be positioned?

- Thank you for that, Mayor Ras Baraka.

- Thank you.

Take care.

(cymbal crashing) - "The Democrats are the Democrats' problem," says Mayor Baraka.

And you can see why he thinks that.

While some like him are out there advancing forward-thinking policy that might solve people's needs in innovative ways, others seem content to sit on their hands patiently waiting for midterms, or spend their time finger pointing over who said what about Biden.

In the days since we spoke, Mayor Baraka has filed a lawsuit, charging U.S. attorney and close Trump ally, Alina Habba, of subjecting him to false arrest with malicious intent to affect his reputation, and therefore his chances in New Jersey's gubernatorial primary.

Will the judge come down on Baraka's side?

Who knows?

But I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

One thing we know about Trump and Trumpism is that Trumpers are keenly aware of cultural resonance.

They are waging a culture war.

And it's a war against exactly the history and legacy that Baraka is a part of.

What Baraka knows and many Democrats seems still yet to figure out is that there is strength too in that cultural legacy.

That one going back to the '60s and '70s and '80s of liberation.

We talked about his own practice of poetry and the resonance he saw in his own arrest to that of his father, Amiri Baraka's arrest in 1979, in our extended conversation, which you can find by subscribing to our free podcast.

In the meantime, Democrats, which side are you on?

The culture war is on, are you part of it?

You can find all our archives at our website, 'Til the next time, stay kind, stay curious.

For "Laura Flanders & Friends," I'm Laura, thanks for joining us.

(upbeat music) For more on this episode and other forward-thinking content, subscribe to our free newsletter for updates, my commentaries and our full uncut conversations.

We also have a podcast, it's all at lauraflanders.org (upbeat music)