(calm music) - [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race, & Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(cool music) (cool music continues) - Hello, my friends, and welcome to "Roots, Race, and Culture," where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

- I'm Danor Gerald.

- And I'm Lonzo Liggins.

Now, Danor, how many Black and Brown people does it take to screw in a light bulb?

- Hmm, nobody knows... (smacks lips) 'Cause the lights would've been out.

(Lonzo chuckles) That's a hard joke to get away with in today's social climate.

You gotta be the right comedian in the right room.

And we have two fantastic local Black comedians in the studio today to discuss the ins and outs of performing Black comedy in a predominantly white market.

Let's start with Chantell Black.

Chantell, welcome to the show.

Thank you for being here.

- Thank you.

- Please introduce yourself.

Tell us a little something.

- Well, my name is Chantell, but on stage I go by Chan B. I am born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.

First gen- - Go Brooklyn.

- Yes.

- Brooklyn's in the house.

- Yes.

I have to put...

I know they always say, like, "Brooklyn people are the loudest."

And we are.

We have to let ourselves be known everywhere we go.

So... And I'm first generation American.

My family is from Jamaica.

- Okay.

- So I am very proud of that and I kinda bring that into my comedy style.

And yeah, I've been doing comedy for about eight years now.

- Awesome, welcome.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you.

- T.J.'s in the house.

- T.J.. - T.J., tell us about yourself.

- I'm T.J. Taylor, I'm from Arlington, Texas, originally.

I've been doing comedy for about five years here in Utah, and I've been having a blast, and it's good to be on this show.

I appreciate you, guys, for having me.

- Yeah, of course, man.

- So, now, I wanna just first say, I've done a very little bit of comedy, mostly open mic stuff.

And I imagine being in Utah, 'cause it's not like Texas, it's not like Brooklyn, you know, it's 2% Black here, and that's a very big demographic difference.

So what is it like for you, guys...

Especially, particularly you, Chantell.

I know you do some comedy in LA, you've done it all over the... Indianapolis, all over the place.

What's different about doing comedy here?

- I will say that I have grown, being here, only because it does not look like other cities that I've been to.

Granted, you go to some places in LA, New York, the audience has a lot of comedians in it, so it's kind of like you're performing for your peers.

And those people come to...

They are so used to hearing so many seasoned comedians.

Whereas here it's like the audience, even though it may be predominantly white or other, they came to see comedy.

So... And they're open to hear from a woman's perspective, from a Black woman's perspective.

So I would say that I was very apprehensive, but once I started it was been a very enjoyable experience.

- Mm-hmm.

- That's good.

- T.J, you started here, right?

- Yeah, I started here.

I actually haven't performed outside of Utah.

I've been here my whole career.

And you know, quite frankly, I've had an incredible time with these audiences.

Like Chantell said, they're there to laugh and enjoy a comedy show.

You know, it's super fun doing comedy here in Utah because everybody...

If you bomb, they just don't laugh, and that's fine.

No one- - They're not throwing tomatoes.

(all laugh) - They're not throwing tomatoes.

- Knives at you.

- Yeah.

- It's not like the Apollo where they get, you know, they get the hook?

- Yeah.

- Right.

So it's the best place to grow because you're not, like, immediately, you know... You know, turned off from doing it.

- Now, I have to ask you this now, as a comedian of color, Black comedians, do you consider your ethnicity an asset or a liability?

'Cause I think there's a different way to approach it, depending on how you feel about that.

- I think it can be an asset because in a space like this, it's a voice that is unfamiliar to them.

So, "Them," meaning it could be Hispanic, Asian, or just natives, even Black natives of Utah.

Hearing the perspective of someone that has lived in other places and come from a different background, is almost refreshing.

So I feel like it's been an asset because I can bring that kind of breath of fresh air to the city.

Only way I can see it being a liability is because people may come with a bias or a stereotype.

So if they see my name is on a ticket at a club, they may say, "Oh, I don't wanna see her 'cause I don't wanna hear...

I don't wanna hear those kind of jokes," and stuff like that.

So that's the only time.

It's like trying to get people in the door to hear that I'm not going to give you that kinda stereotypical kind of performance.

- Mm.

- Mm!

- Mm.

So you gotta be open to hearing the perspective.

- Yeah, 'cause- - Instead of assuming.

- Like, especially, like when you watch, like, with Black comedians.

You can't, like, point out...

When there's an all-Black audience, they'll say the one white dude, "There's a white guy in the audience."

You can't do that here, right?

(all laugh) A lot of white guys in the audience.

- No, they- (Chantell laughs) - You know they gonna get it bad.

- Yeah, so there's- - If anything, they point at the one Black person- - Yeah.

- In the audience.

- Yeah, "There's a Black guy over there.

Let's focus on him."

- Or you just look for 'em in there.

- (laughs) Yeah.

- Mm-hmm.

- So there's a... Lemme ask you, guys, a question, because, you know, as we saw, Danor was trying to do a little comedy.

He's done some himself actually, he's done a couple standup things.

But there's different styles of doing comedy.

Like, as a person who doesn't do standup comedy, but I watch it, what kind of different styles are there, and what kinda different styles do you use?

I wanna start with you, T.J. - Well, you know... You know, some guys get up there and they do these one-liners.

Some guys tell stories.

Some guys do impressions, and stuff like that.

There's a lot of different styles of comedy.

But I think the best way to do it is to just exaggerate yourself and who you are, and get on stage and be big and, you know, show yourself and your jokes, and show yourself through your jokes.

And that's kinda the way that I do it.

- We actually have a clip of you- - Mm-hmm.

- Doing some comedy that we can see you in all of your larger-than-life self.

So let's go ahead and cut to that and check him out.

This is T.J. - Hey.

Man, it's the holiday season.

You know, you know what that means for me?

White Thanksgiving invites.

(audience laughs) "T.J, we just love you.

You know, we want you to come to our home."

(audience laughs) "Please have Thanksgiving with us.

Come here, come be with our family."

No, I don't wanna do that.

Please don't invite me into your Thanksgiving.

(audience laughs) And we don't have to talk about the food long, okay?

You know, there's some marshmallows and raisins everywhere.

(audience laughs) We got aunties coming up to me, "I voted for Obama."

(audience laughs) "Both times!"

Don't care.

I don't care.

(audience laughs) Kids staring at you.

(audience laughs) Only Black people they ever see is in those Kidz Bop videos, you know?

(audience laughs) Doing this kind of (beeps).

(audience laughs) Somebody's buying those albums.

(all laugh) - That's good.

I actually waited to see that because I didn't wanna watch the clip prior, you know?

So, would you consider that like a one-liner type of comedy?

- Well, that's more of a story of my experience, you know, in Utah, and sort of the things that I've gone through and the way I opened it was just kind of, you know, I wanted to smack the audience in the face a little bit with, you know, a good joke right off the bat.

- Traditionally, or at least stereotypically, comedy is sort of a male-dominated space, right?

And so I really would love to hear from you, Chantell, what is your comedy like, how do you navigate being a comedian as a woman.

Tell us a little bit about that experience.

- Oof, I mean, I'm still learning, still growing.

Of course, I grew up watching, like, the Luenell, and some more, and those, but then you...

It's like the list is so much shorter compared to other Black male comedians over the past 30 years.

So I have tried to do my comedy in a way that my mom, my colleagues, they can all still come and see me.

I have seen some other women that can be like, kind of shocking, can be vulgar.

I try not to be too much- - Mm-hmm.

- 'Cause you know, I don't want my mom to just come on stage and just slap me- - Because you got Jamaican mom.

- "Sit on!

(all laugh) "Wash out your mouth with some soap."

(all laughing) Yeah, I don't want that.

But I still want it to be relatable.

Like, I'm a woman of a certain age, and I'm single, and I don't have children.

So just that experience alone.

Navigating, dating.

Dating in Utah.

- Right.

- Just talking about things that anybody in the audience can say, whether they're Black, white, or anyone.

Any woman that's in their thirties trying to date is like, "Man, Hunter ain't ish, and neither is Jaquan."

So we can all laugh together in those kinda things.

And that's kinda how I want it to be so that anyone can come and feel like, "I had a good time.

I didn't feel targeted.

I didn't feel like, 'Lemme tell y'all about white people.'"

Like, I don't wanna do that.

Especially in a place like that.

It's almost so expected.

- Mm.

- So I just wanna- - Yeah, T.J. - Be like.

(laughs) - Well.

(all laugh) Well, here's my...

Here's my explanation.

Well, I feel like honestly, I agree with that.

I think that's...

But I think that it's important sometimes to, you know, open a window for white people to look in and see kind of- - Obviously.

- You know, how we see things.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And the white Thanksgiving joke that you guys played, that's actually a play on just me as a Black person here in Utah, and my experience with white people.

So the white people are like, "It's funny that you had that experience," not, "I feel"- - Incensed- - "Made fun of or something like that," right?

- Shame on you, T.J. (all laugh) - They're playing.

- I'm just playing with you.

Here's the thing though, I'm curious with you, Chantell.

So you did comedy in Brooklyn, correct?

- Yeah, I've done it in different cities.

So, New York, Vegas, Philly... - Because we wanna see a clip of your stuff, but I wanna just say, like, there's a bit of a difference between, you know, how you do comedy in Brooklyn, and say, how you do comedy in Utah.

So let's take a look at some of her stuff right now.

- When I first found out that I was moving to Utah, of course I cried, but I did the best (indistinct) this day.

I googled and I typed in, "Are there any black people in Utah?"

(audience laughs) Come on, you know, you would've did it too, wouldn't you?

Exactly, exactly.

So I went and I checked.

I didn't even get the circle.

You know, the little spinning wheel?

I got the "Hmm" emoji.

Google was like, "I ain't never been asked this before and I've been asked a lot of things, but I ain't never been asked this."

And she was like, "Do you mean are there any black people in California?

Because girl, you could go to Inglewood, you could go to Watts, you could go to Compton, you could go to Long Beach.

I said, "No."

I'm saying, "Let me, you know, we are in a DEI environment, except in Florida.

(audience chuckles) Are there any African American populace in the beehive state of Utah?"

And the computer started shaking.

Was like, "Whoa, okay."

I thought we was going back in time.

The screen went black and it said "404, page search cannot be found."

I was like, "Damn!"

I will just have to find this out by my damn self.

Okay, I'm gonna find it out.

I get there.

So now I'm trying to find somewhere to stay.

I'm Googling and I'm researching, and I found a neighborhood, very nice house, two bedroom, townhouse, upstairs, downstairs.

Y'all don't judge me.

Y'all wanna know why?

Because I want y'all come visit because it's really nice out there.

Cottonwood Heights.

- Ah!

(audience laughs) - Ciao!

I said, "Well, you know what?

The rent's not bad, okay?

The rent is not bad."

(audience laughs) (Lonzo and Danor laugh) - I'll never look at Cottonwood Heights the same way.

(Lonzo and Danor laugh) - But I don't have to pick anything up but my mail, okay?

(all laugh) - Right on.

Yeah.

- That is a...

So, like, in Brooklyn.

Like, your whole delivery would be different, right?

- Right.

And that was in Maryland.

But yeah, that was closer to the Baltimore area.

- Mm-hmm.

- And I've actually done that joke here in Utah.

The name itself is funny anywhere you go.

But then if you're local, and when I say that joke, they're like, "That's a... That's a bougie area."

I mean, I'm not Post Malone.

So, you know... (all laugh) They're like, "Okay, she living up there."

But yeah, I do stay searching things when I go other places, because they're just the selling point of me being in Utah.

- Right.

- I've had...

I just say I live in Utah and some people just laugh for three minutes straight before I can even start.

(all laugh) They're just like, "Oh, I thought that was the joke.

You are serious, ain't you?

Oh Lord.

(audience laugh) You...

Okay."

- So I have a question for both of you too.

You know, there's so many...

I grew up watching Richard Pryor, and you know, just a lot of those big, you know- - Eddie Murphy.

- Dangerfield.

- Eddie Murphy.

You know, obviously now, today we watch Dave Chappelle, other comedians like that.

Who are some big names, some people that you grew up watching, you know, that are big comedians to you, and do you kind of borrow from them, or do you, you know, find that they use a lot of these cliche-type performances that you take.

- Yeah.

- Lemme start with you, T.J. - So I grew up, I was seven years old watching "The Chappelle Show."

Like...

So I grew up with Chappelle.

- Okay.

- That was who... That was kinda my beacon of comedy, and seeing his career grow and progress, and things like that.

It, you know, that really inspired me to want to write jokes and comedy.

I love Mike Epps because Mike Epps is a comedian who doesn't really need to say anything.

(Danor laughs) He's just funny.

Like, you know, he just exudes it with what- - Right.

- How he says things.

And then also Jerry Seinfeld- - Right.

- Who is an incredible writer.

- Yeah.

- An incredible writer.

He's just excellent.

So with that trio of just a funny guy, a great writer, and then Dave Chappelle, who is probably one of the best, like, deliverers, like, he's a great joke crafter- - Builder.

- Yeah.

You know?

- A craftsman.

- And like, with that combination, I felt like I could do this, you know?

And, you know, it was a lot of motivation.

One of the first jokes I wrote and went and performed, I just said, "I'm gonna be Dave on stage," because this is my first time.

- Right.

- And I wanna do a good job.

And, you know, it's...

When I watched that back, I'm like, "That was Dave."

And I'm really glad that I transitioned to, you know, kinda have my own voice.

- To answer your question in terms of, like, comics that I... Or inspired by.

Most of them are not standup comedians.

- Really?

- Yeah.

So if anyone asked me, the first person that comes to mind is Lucille Ball.

- Oh, wow.

- She's also a August baby.

But I'm from New York.

But she just had a...

I also have, like, a comedic personality where it's just being around me.

I'm not planning to do punchlines in everything I do, but that's just how I am.

And you can watch.

And just watching the "Lucille Ball Show," that was a show where it's just like you have a feeling that not everything was scripted, or there are certain episodes that you remember, like when they had the conveyor belt- - Yeah.

- And she's trying to stuff all the chocolate balls in her mouth and it's just like she was just in it, and just being goofy, and just going for it.

- That's right.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So her.

And starting my comedy journey, I started in sketch comedy.

- Mm-hmm.

- So that was also in the acting space where, you know, you develop a character and you're telling a joke within the story.

So a lot of the people that I like are also from sketch comedy.

Maya Rudolph, Tina Fey.

Like, the women of "Saturday Night Live."

Some of the women from "Mad TV."

Those are the ones I wanted to be on all that, so... - You- - I'm glad I'm not 'cause you know, that whole Nickelodeon- - Right.

Right.

- Yeah.

You know.

(all laugh) Hey, so God's plan.

- Well, you know, the thing too is, like, there's like, when it comes to, especially, Black female comedians, like really big ones, there's only about a handful that most people know.

You know, like, I mean.

I mean, can you name some that inspire you?

Some Black comedian... Black female comedians?

- Black women comedians?

- Yeah.

- I would say Luenell, because it's like even in her age, she's still able to be relevant and talk about things.

Like, she's not trying to be something else.

Like, she's like, "This is where I am, this is what I do."

Tiffany Haddish and just her being authentically her.

I like her.

And you know, but it's true, like, the list is very small.

Like, the comedians that I like, I will say a name and no one in this room will really know who they are because they're the ones from this generation, but I'ma still shout them out.

But it's like the Courtney Bees, the Mel Mitchells, the Keysha Es.

The ones that are on the social media sites right now.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Those are the ones that are a part of the generation of names that we will remember years from now.

- Oh, that's cool.

- So I just feel like there was a low gap.

And now the new generation, through social media, is starting to pick up.

- That's big.

You know, and there's...

Interesting, there's a lot of different styles of comedy.

You mentioned sketch comedy.

And there's been some pretty big sketch comedy groups in Utah.

Improv is also a huge part.

And I think you've done some improv before.

We have some Latino improv artists and I got to go down and check 'em out.

So I want to take a look at that and I want you guys to give me some thoughts after you watch this clip.

So check it out.

This is some Latino improv comedians.

- I am Kiara Mercedes.

- And I'm Bryson Alejandro.

And we are improv comedians.

- We are, yes.

- And we perform at ImprovBroadway in Provo.

And we love it.

- We do.

- We do.

- We do.

- Oh!

(public laughs) - Baby, I looked at your drafts, your tongue is really big.

(public laughs) ImprovBroadway, it's a musical improv comedy theater.

I will strike you down!

Ah!

- (blows) Knife!

- Ah!

(public laughs) - So we hold auditions every six months and we really try to be a place where we encourage diversity.

- Oh!

Hi!

- Hello.

- Hello.

- Hello, sister.

(Kiara speaks faintly) (audience laughs) This is our first time performing together.

This will be the first time that ImprovBroadway has two Latin American comedians on stage together.

- Yes, yeah.

- Right?

- So that's monumental.

- Yeah.

- Very exciting.

- [Kiara] This is ringing history.

- Look inside the crevice.

There's millions of them.

- The crevices or the things inside the crevice?

(public laughs) Oh.

- My mom is from Colombia and I was born and raised here in Utah.

- My dad is from Panama and was raised in the canal zone.

My grandmother, her whole family goes back to, like, Panama, Ecuador, like, native.

Hey baby, are you a restroom 'cause I don't think I like what the last person did here.

- The power of comedy is we're able to, like, change people's perspectives and hopefully they grow in empathy, or they just grow in understanding, by just viewing people that are different than them on stage.

- I think that there's a lot more at stake when we lean into stereotypes.

And I, honestly...

I think people appreciate when we don't, at least that's the response that I've gotten, is like, "Oh wow, there's some depth here."

And to be seen beyond just the label that someone might give me is really meaningful to me, and I think allows for more intimate connection between audience and creator.

(audience laughs) - Wow.

- So what do you think about that, T.J.?

Anything come to mind?

- Well, I have a really good friend who has moved to LA now.

Her name is Jasmine Faye.

And Jasmine was a part of a improv group called Crowdsource.

Yes.

- Crowdsource.

- And they used to do this show where you come to their show, and as a comedian, you do five minutes, and then they'll come up and do a five-minute improv sketch based on what comedy you just did.

- Wow!

- Yeah.

So I love improv.

I've been on that show twice.

And I haven't really gone to improv shows.

It seems like something that I would love to learn to do in order to help me out with standup.

And I appreciate people who do it all the time.

- Have you two... Have either of you bombed (T.J. chuckles) in your career?

And if you have what... (laughs) He's like, "Pfft"- - Yes.

- "Every night!"

- Absolutely, yes.

- Well, well, can you talk a little bit about that?

Like, what that experience is like?

- Well, your palms are sweaty, easily.

No, I'm just joking.

(all laugh) No.

No, it's really bad because if you're lucky, you start bombing later, because usually you're slotted for a certain amount of time.

So if you get up and you start, you know, not feeling it immediately and your jokes aren't landing, you just feel like, "Ah, God."

Like, sometimes you'll go to a show and you'll do a joke that worked in some place, and then you go to this new place and like we were talking about earlier, you have to change a little bit for the audience that you're in.

- Mm-hm.

- Sometimes you don't recognize that sort of difference- - Right away, yeah.

- And then you try to do that joke the same way, and it falls flat, and your confidence and all your other jokes that you have left... (all laughing) - No.

- You gotta find your audience.

- Yeah.

- You gotta figure 'em out.

- Readjusting.

Have you bombed before?

I imagine you have.

I mean, there's- - No.

- Never?

- No.

- She's like, "No, I never have."

(all laugh) I think it's a rite of passage for every comedian, right?

- I guess I haven't been in a kind of unforgiving room yet, for that to happen.

- Uh-huh.

- The places I've been in, I guess even if a joke wasn't that, they'd be like, "Okay, baby.

Mm, okay."

But I have had jokes that have bombed, not my whole set.

- Right.

- But I've had jokes where it's like, "All right, that didn't land... That didn't land so well."

I think it was because I was...

It was right when...

This is local.

When HB 261, the DEI- - Oh- - Thing.

- Yeah.

- I don't know if I can say that 'cause- - Yeah, you can.

- You know, we're in the state that- - It's a law.

- It's bad- - You cannot say though.

- Um.

(all laughing) - Right.

So I had made a joke about that, and I was like, "Do y'all know what it is?"

And they were... And you know, white people were like, "No."

I was like, "Of course y'all don't 'cause it don't apply to you."

So I kinda used, like, half of my five-minute set, to just go on a rant and just educate them.

And then I know... And then I was like, "All right, we'll get back to the jokes, but I'ma have to educate you."

So it was kinda like the room was quiet for a bit- - Right.

- But in terms of jokes that bombed, it may be something that I said in my...

I stumbled in my delivery and it wasn't that good.

But you just gotta rebound for it.

I just gotta- - Yeah.

- "Got 30 seconds left, let's find something else."

I saw that actually, when I was moving here, I was Googling... Like I said, I did a Google search, "Black people in Utah."

And then I said, "No"- - "404, no page found."

- Yeah.

Because I started my comedy in New Orleans, and then I moved to New York, and then I kinda got intimidated by the New York scene and then COVID happened.

So when I found out I was moving to Utah, I was like, "All right, let me start here."

And I googled and I was looking for comedy, and then I saw a T.J. show and you know, I slid in his DMs, respectfully.

And I was like, "There's a Black Comedian."

And then you said like, "Hey, you're a Black woman doing comedy.

There's only one other Black woman doing it, she does improv, so you ain't gotta worry about her."

And I kinda came in with that mindset, and I've been more consistent here than any other city that I've been in.

- You know, in so many places and spaces, things get very competitive in other markets, right?

And it's kind of cutthroat dog-eat-dog.

And here, what I'm getting from you guys is it's a support system.

It's a place to learn, to grow, to develop, to work together.

To, you know... What is it?

A rising tide lifts all ships- - Rising tide- - Or something like that.

- Lifts all boats.

- Did you say shoots?

- Ships.

- Ships.

- Ships.

(laughs) - Yeah.

You could build a thick resume here and take it to another city to make yourself more marketable.

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

- Whereas, if you were in a larger city, everyone is fighting just to get on a open mic.

Whereas you come to a city here, you can produce your own.

Like- - Wow.

- And now you go to another city and it is almost like a job.

So it's like this kind of helps build your resume by using your ethnicity as an asset.

- Yes.

- Not a liability.

- The lack of- - Boom!

Look at that.

- That's the copy technique, you bring it back.

- Yeah, no!

- You bring it back.

- The lack- - Just don't invite T.J. to Thanksgiving.

- Don't do it.

(Lonzo laughs) Don't do it.

- [Chantell] He'll (indistinct) no potatoes- - [Lonzo] Screw in a light bulb.

(all laugh) - The lack of diversity breeds the need for diversity.

- Yeah.

- So you fit those spaces when you can.

I mean, the doors are open.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, love it.

- Yeah, I think- - Thank you guys for being here.

- Yes!

Thank you.

- This has been a really fun show.

- You've been wonderful.

- I love you guys.

I gotta come see you, guys, man.

- Yeah, I can't wait.

- Ah, oh.

- Yeah, well- - I got some shows.

- Well, I want... We wanna hear all about you.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah- - Hear all about it.

- Yeah.

- Well, that's it for today.

From all of us at PBS Utah, thanks for joining the conversation.

And as always, other episodes and extended conversations can be found on our website, pbsutah.org/roots, or on the PBS Utah YouTube channel.

- And if you have any feedback or ideas for other episodes, be sure to give us a shout out on social media.

Until next time, for "Roots, Race & Culture."

Y'all, we are out!

(cool upbeat music) - [Announcer] Funding for Roots Race and Culture is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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